HeyAbbott

23 minutes ago, buddha said:

correa turning down less than market value IN DECEMBER - very early in the signing process - is not a "bad look" for him at all.  he's testing the market.  his agent likely knows what he'll get offered.

correa is the best talent on the market, why is it a bad look for him to turn down less than what seager took?

Solid observations in the above quote. In a negotiation, any bid is fair. If your trying to sell a VerMeer painting, and the seller states he wants 12 million, and you offer 50,000, you simply have a starting point for negotiations. BTW, a authenticated Ver Meer sold about a dozen years ago for 3.5 million, if I recall correctly. What does to seem to be odd though is that there seem to be only a few people serious about Correa, as if there was some collusion in the background somewhere...

11 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I think I am going to go into next year with no expectations... that way I'm not locked in to a win goal or playoff goal...

Although like you I do expect them to be in the 90 game win range and compete for the playoffs. And think that's entirely reasonable.

I am at the 83 to 85 win range for the Tigers, for 2022, assuming the season starts on time. With a 14 team playoff, 87 wins should get a team in.

1 hour ago, Longgone said:

The players want younger players paid more, they’ll increase starting salaries and maybe tie them to an index, maybe earlier arbitration. No one is proposing eliminating the luxury tax, players want higher ceilings and no penalties for exceeding, owners want lower, they’ll meet in the middle. Players want earlier free agency, probably get it for older players. Both sides have proposed “anti tanking “ measures. I don’t believe anyone seriously wants a floor. Nothing revolutionary here. 

I like your take on things, and it would be the most logical. I do think that much of the remaining negotiations will be forged out of a  cauldron filled to the brim of the unpleasant alloy of greed, arrogance and ego. In such an environment, it may take a long time for mutual self interest to prevail, maybe several months.

4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Wait a minute...  NLRB?  What about the ALRB?  

NLRB is the National Labor Relations Board. If either side were to make claims of an unfair labor practice, that could give them jurisdiction. They have the power to appoint an aribiter, and this will often happen to avoid delays in settlement. Their powers are very broad, and many remedies are placed in their hands by law.

 I think that if there is any hope to a meaningful season this year, it will be the fruit of some kind of arbitration.

On 12/8/2021 at 11:11 AM, Jim Cowan said:

That 76 team, with its losing record, provided as much or more enjoyment than any other team in my lifetime.  And those 1960s teams before 1968 were so much fun to follow, good teams every year.  I don't need a World Series to have a good year following baseball.

I still think my favorite season was 1967. Still the greatest pennant race I've seen with 1987 being right behind it 1961 was very good as well.

43 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said:

It’s hard for me to figure out how unified the two sides are. As others have mentioned, the players are a large and varied group. The owners are much fewer, but do they all have the same commitment to a siege?

Can anything be read into the pre-lockout FA signings? Does Texas ownership want things resolved more quickly than, say, the Yankees? Does a team like the Padres feel they blew it last year and then are content to let 2022 fade away? What about the Tigers, they have to feel excited about an improved team? Or are most owners, Tigers included, willing to write off short term pain to exert their power?

Is there a mechanism to start talks or mediation? 

If both sides agree that they have bargained to impasse,tThey could get an NLRB Arbitrator to decide. We are a very long way from that though.

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

You think the labor thing is going to be solved by Christmas.    that is VERY optimistic.   I don't think there will be any major league moves until February or March at the earliest.  

I sense that the owners and the players have adopted a siege mentality. July 1 looks like it will be the 2022 opening day, assuming that there is a season.

On 12/3/2021 at 4:14 PM, oblong said:

A nice thread on the subject 

 

The conversation here has raised many good points.  I do think this will be a very long hiatus. July 1 looks like a good date for a settlement.

30 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Manipulate the competitive balance:  check

Invite gambling into the sport on a massive scale: check

Manfred:  I see no reason why gamblers should see opportunities to control outcomes

The suit by  a conned gambler ploy is what originally got the Black Sox case to trial. The scenario is perhaps unlikely, but possible.

17 hours ago, romad1 said:

I mean, that's fraud. 

If I were any player injured for any kind of play related to the juiced balls, I would get a lawyer and sue Manfred's ass.

Given that MLB has gotten cozy with the big gambling corporations, If someone bet on those games and lost big, they might have an actionable suit that would promise a good financial reward.

I am sympathetic toward the players making league minimum when such a huge pot of money sloshes around. If any of the numbers that are out there are that I have seen are remotely true, there is a structural financial imbalance that has developed between the players and the owners.  A larger share of the revenue should go toward the players. I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing if the league minimum were closer at least 800,000, if not 1 million.

The reason that there are signing bonuses for high rated draft picks is that minor league players make nothing. The numbers I have seen are  $15k for AAA, $9.4k for AA, and 6k for single A.  The minor leagues are another matter, but at least get the lower tier of MLB players a substantially higher minimum.

https://sport-net.org/who-qualifies-for-mlb-minimum-salary-2/

I think most fans are overly optimistic . The CBA will take a long time to hammer out. The players want their share of the revenue to be at a minimum 50 percent of total revenue. If their percentage of the revenue  were in line with other leagues, it would be much higher if I recall the numbers correctly.  Manfred is a self centered Jack Ass on his best days.

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

it's not even the money to me, it's the contract terms these teams are giving away. I don't care if they pay a SS $50M/yr as long as he is on the field producing. It's the fact the even if they can afford it, teams remain very reluctant to just cut guys making >30M/yr even when they reach mere replacement level. So they clog up the lineup. That's the killer. Well maybe you hope he has a good year - after all he did two years ago for the half season before the nagging injury, or There's a lot PR value in his chase for 'X' (like maybe 3K hits?), or Man we are going to look dumb if we cut him and the knee/back/ankle improves and he puts up 5WAR for some other team on our money.

There is always a reason to hope against hope and give the guy one more year.

Iin the end, the opportunity cost is not in the dollars, it's in the roster spots.

If you pay 20 million dollars for a racehorse to put to stud and the horse dies do you know what you have-- a dead horse. It my way of saying I agree with the above quote.

And as for our SS need, it is real and it isn't going away. I still prefer to see it settled now.When July rolls around though, there will be someone out there that will be cutting payroll and may be unloading a very good SS, or maybe not. Maybe the risk isn't as great as it seems to miss out on the SS sweepstakes and wait. As far as future performance, it would not be surprising to see 1 to 3 of these SS deals tuen out to be a total bust.

Hold on to your hats, a big move is coming.

On 11/20/2021 at 9:15 AM, Tiger337 said:

 It is essential that they have a shortstop.  Right now, they don't have one.  Correa is the best all around player among the available shortstops, but the others would fit too.   

It is clear they need a shortstop. What is not clear is that Correa is the one. There is a more fleeting likelihood that Correa will be an elite everyday player half way through his 1o year contract, assuming there aren't back issues as some rumors suggest.

We maybe looking at a 100 game SS by year 4 with Correa. Maybe one of the other suspects (Story, Siemen, Baez, etc) might be a better bet.

Is Correa absolutely essential to build a winning team that will be competitive for say, 3 years?

I like this Rodriguez deal, assuming it gets finalized. He should be a much better pitcher in Comerica than Fenway. Here is hoping that they finalize the SS position in a favorable manner. So who is going to be the reclamation project acquisition?

With respect to a third uniform, I like the 1907 or 19117 with the blue colloar and the blue cap with the white piping.

Here is the picture of the uni's:

https://blog.heritagesportsart.com/2010/08/detroit-tigers-uniform-and-team-history.html

I think that the cornerstone of this off-season should be nailing down the SS position. By the trade deadline, many of the other items might be fallible by the trade deadline. On the other hand, if there is a new quality C and a SP, I won't go cry in my beer.

2 hours ago, oblong said:

Is it true the winter meetings have been cancelled ?  Tweet I saw thinks it’s lockout related.  Maybe just covid precautions and they don’t need to gather to do their job?

I missed this on net. But even so, for such a meeting, unless you are trying to generate instant hype with the media covering an event, given modern telecommunications, a meeting can be held anywhere and anytime you want it to be.

It is very tempting to look at the bad start in '21 and presume it won't be repeated. Another out-of-the norm event from last year was the number of major arm surgeries required (Faedo in the minors, Turnball, Rogers at C, and Boyd). I'd probably anticipate one SP going down this year and Faedo  and Turnball will not contribute much this year. I tend to think that the TJ surgeries that will meaningfully reduce the impact of key arms, and thus offset the gains expected to be realized by not starting so poorly this year. This is a 77 win team as things stand now.

We have a problem at SP and SS. To make the most of the pitching we do have, I would rate the SS decision to be the most important decision, then the pitching need, and then finally the catcher position. I am most certainly not counting on any untested minor league guy to fill the bill at short.

2 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

FWIW, I think you have nailed it.  I wouldn't mind seeing a little "tune up" in mid relief as well ...a couple of our go-to guys that  we now use.... drive me insane

Thanks. One thing that struck me in reading this thread is that there did seem to be consensus with what the team need to add or change. That is an indicator that this is a better team than years past when it was the case that everything needed to change and there was little agreement on what to do first.

For me, I hope we sort out SS first. That will help to determine a number of other steps.

After reading this, I am trying to figure out what the consensus about this team is.

We started 4- 29 and still finished with 77 wins. If we had broke even on the first 34 games we would have won 90 games. Getting to the playoffs is the minimal 2022 objective in my mind.

Barring ridiculous notions about trading cheap and good cost controlled pitching here is what I see:

1) We need a quality short stop that can be both solid defensively and offensively. Correa fills the bill.

2) We need to obtain one solid veteran starting pitcher -- near ace quality.

3). We need a catcher.

Any other adds should depend on the state of the club in July. There are also some folks in the minors that might be tradable, if the right offer is made. Is this a reasonable summary of what we need in the offseason?