chasfh

43 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Tiger offense has been terrible for 3 yrs under Hinch and there virtually no sign of improvement or cases of hitters making unexpected progress. It's hard to make a case for this management around the hitting. To me the issue is how to avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water. The same people are running the pitching side very well. Can we get them to delegate to different sub-group who can bring more to the hitting without losing the rest? 

I really don't know - it's a muddle right now.

Over half of those three years was under previous front office management with terrible ability to find major league hitting talent. We're still digging out of that hole. Honestly, we're probably going to have to throw out some more of the babies this front office inherited before it gets better.

As for the hitting coaches, I can't personally vouch for them as actually knowing what they're doing, although I do have more certainty around the idea that we still have a lot of just bad hitters on the team and high up in the system. Maybe we do end up ****-canning one or more of them, although I'd be a little surprised if they did so tonight, or tomorrow, or next week or month, or even before the end of the season. Changing coaching philosophies midstream is really hard on players so it's pretty rare. It would have to be a five-alarm fire to do so, I think.

(Cue replies of FIRE! FIRE!)

3 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

I don't see this Tiger organization signing any current player longterm. Skubal will be moved as he gets closer to free agency, whenever that is. And you're right, I don't see the Tigers taking on any established and expensive players either. I guess we just need to be patient and let Harris keep making minor deals and see if we get lucky.

Yes, that. Or, we could continue to build on the plan that’s surely in place and give it a chance to work.

BTW if we end up trading Skubal for prospects before he’s a free agent, that means we have definitely failed.

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't see there can be much to lose by staring over with a new hitting staff and a different approach. If someone can come in and persuade AJ there are better methods I would not be averse.

You mean, like, now? In the middle of the season? Bring in all new coaches and break down the players and get them to forget everything they know and rebuild them to learn entirely new systems all while trying to get them to score runs in live games? I don’t know, sounds like a tall order to me. 

1 minute ago, Sports_Freak said:

Of course, our ace shouldn't be moved. At least, not yet. Greene? Keith? If the deal is right...maybe. 

Well look, if you’re gonna flip the future linchpins of your offense for even younger, even greener minor leaguers who are even farther away from making a contribution, then you might as well liquidate all your future linchpin pitching, too. Especially since Skubal isn’t going to want to stick around an organization explicitly committed to giving up and going nowhere. 

Maybe the hitters hate A.J. as much as we do! 🤣  

7 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

I don't want Harris to panic or listen to people screaming to do something and end up trading some of our young talent. IMO, Jung, Max Clark and Jobe should all be untouchable. Maybe Olson too. Everyone else should be available.  

That’s right! Skubal … GONE! Riley … GONE! Wenceel … GONE! Colt Keith … GONE! All of them, GONE!  Except four guys. We can do it!! 😉

19 minutes ago, kdog said:

SSS theater...but Greene and Canha can't have a bad 15 days. Baez, Keith, Tork, and catchers have been so feeble that you need your best hitters to be great all year..but it's unrealistic. The real solution is to have more depth.

I think we’ll get there. Rome wasn’t built in a day.

25 minutes ago, AZTigersfan said:

Shutout by the Marlins…at home…. TWICE!!!  This can’t happen! The entire team is underperforming offensively and we’re going to blame the GM right? When does the coaching staff have to answer for this?

Fire them all, release all the players, sell the team and move it to Nashville before the White Sox get there!

49 minutes ago, UCFKNIGHT said:

Does Jeff Greenberg have any authority to make decisions concerning this team? I cannot believe he and Scott Harris are in complete agreement on what is currently taking place with the Tigers. I wonder if Greenberg regrets leaving the NHL and the Chicago Blackhawks?

Greenberg hates the Tigers

1 hour ago, UCFKNIGHT said:

When will AJ Hinch be held accountable for hiring such a poor coaching staff on the offensive side of the game? 

Hitters win games, coaching loses them. 

8 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

 

I wasn't accused on the old site of being an hysteric, but I was accused of engaging in Alarmist Non-sense.

35 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

actually the post didn't say anything about the Tigers, only that it is pretty well accepted around the league that some teams are going to do what they can without spending big and whatever happens is what happens. And to make that specific to the Tigers, the whole push toward excelling at development is aimed at doing exactly that - winning without having to spend big. Of course the problem is that while it's a nice theory, history tell us it is a really hard way to win, not impossible, but spending correlates really well with progress to/through the playoffs. 🤷‍♀️

But those are all long term general considerations. The initial comment about Javy vs empty stands is a narrower situation about the human tendency to refuse to walk away from dead sunk cost. You are paying Javy either way - you can either pay him and have him be a drag on your ball club making it less a draw to fans, or pay him and still move on to a better player and get more fans in the stands with a better team. I would argue the former is the better strategy whether you are committed to being a low payroll team or not. My criticism of the Tigers was not to recognize that last off season when there was still a better chance to do something about it, because there was nothing but romantic thinking behind the idea that Javy would suddenly be better this season.

 

I assumed your post was about the Tigers, even without your explicitly saying so, because this is a thread about the Tigers, and Javy Baez was a very hot topic here when you posted it.

Nevertheless, everyone loves the idea of Tigers walking away from the presumed sunk cost that is Javy Beaz, but this isn't what economists might refer to as a typical consumer sunk cost.

If you buy a lemon of a product and you know you're never going to be happy with it, you might as well throw it away and accept that the money is gone. That makes good economic sense in that case.

But in the case of Javy, there's another factor to consider: unlike you getting rid of the thing you hate, where you don't even have to get a replacement for it if you don't want, the Tigers definitely do have to get a replacement for Javy, and the replacement might actually be worse than Javy.

People will joke, or half-joke, or even seriously state, that no one could possibly be any worse than Javy, but I'm being serious here. If we were to dump Javy this afternoon and replace him with a freely available option from the minors, such as Eddys Leonard or Andrew Navigato, or we sign a currently-available free agent, like Adalberto Mondesi, and they end up doing even worse than Javy—which, again, ha ha, I know, how could anyone do worse, you or I could do better out there for much less money, yuk yuk, but again, let's be serious here—then the front office would get a non-stop ear full of **** from fans for letting Javy go without getting a better replacement. And if you believe that fans will be reasonable and give the Tigers credit just for letting Javy go even if his replacement does worse, then I invite you to refresh your understanding of the nature of emotional fandom by reading some of the posts on this very site.

And what would be even worse is that, if Javy were to be cut, and he were to sign with someone else—and really, there are lots of teams who would take a chance on Javy as long as it costs them only the minimum—and he ends up doing better, or even well, someplace else, then the calls for Harris's head will reach a crescendo. And while you're at it, Scotty-poo, take that egghead in the dugout with you, and don't let the door hit either of you on the ass on your way out. Because there is still the reasonable hope, however much it is dimming, that Javy can still be saved and provide acceptable production for the rest of this contract, and we don't want to be holding the bag for someone else who's getting that benefit while we foot the bill.

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't doubt for a second that there are teams who have decided: "Better to take whatever record comes at  ~$100 million spent and turn a profit, than win with a >$250M payroll and lose money"  Baseball has moved toward some revenue sharing, but the winning incentives are still very non-uniform for baseball teams as compared to NFL teams.

OK, so what are you saying here? Are you saying the Tigers are not putting a better product on the field because they can't afford to? Are you saying they're not putting a better product on the field because they don't care about winning as much as they care about money? Or maybe you're saying they're not putting a better product on the field because they're incompetent, or because they're ignorant because they don't know what you know? Because I know you're not saying they're putting the best product on the field they can given our stage of development and the alternatives available to us.

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Hmm- The box score from Sunday just called to say "Liars, dammed liars, and statisticians!"   

Hmmm ... and the box scores from all seven games from April 8 to May 8 call bull**** on your box score.

YES! NO AUDIENCE! I've been pushing for THAT for YEARS!

I am shocked that Trump would agree to that—assuming he did so before CNN put out this press release. Because a gaggle of braying morons cheering him on is his rocket fuel. Without that kind of raucous audience approval, Trump is going to sound merely unhinged and horrifying.

I hope this actually comes off because I can't wait to see something like this!

14 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

did you see the attendance? Pathetic. There is money to be made by facing up to sunk costs and putting a better product on the field.

Maybe they don't want to put a better product on the field. Maybe they want to lose instead. 😒

nm

Don't look now, but our best reliever is Joey Wentz, which serves me right for agitating for his release for a couple of years now. 😁

In 14-2/3 innings, he's striking out 28.4% of hitters, getting more ground balls while limiting fly balls, getting swings outside the zone and misses on most of them, hammering hitters with strike one, and limiting barrels. This has resulted in a sterling 1.23 ERA, good for a 32 ERA- that's not entirely luck, since his FIP- is 60, which is in the 88th percentile for qualifying relievers.

tl;dr: Wentz good.

Not sure how questioning advertiser-sponsored quasireligious adulation ceremonies at sporting events turned into spitting on veterans.

1 minute ago, pfife said:

This definitely seems a likely series of events but with that video it seems like the Biden campaign may be trying to get under his skin and get him to lose it.   

That's what I'm starting to wonder, whether Biden is merely calling his bluff, assuming Trump will bail on it. Biden made the offer, so he can't be the one to pull out.

2 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

 

I'm wondering what such a debate will even look like. Trump has no incentive to follow any rules, so what kinds of controls will be in place to stop him from simply yammering over Biden and shouting him down? How do they get Trump to agree to any decorum? Because if he acts out and gets completely out of control, and moderators can't or won't enforce any sanctions on him in the moment, then what's Biden's recourse? Shout back at Trump? Get in a fistfight with him? Walk off the stage? I feel as though any response along these lines would hurt Biden far more than Trump. I assume they've already game-planned this out enough that they can make the offer in the first place, but I'm having trouble seeing how the inevitable breakdown during the debate will benefit Biden.

3 hours ago, oblong said:

 

With any luck, this will all be dismissed on the right as fake news and the Trump party will traipse blithely into the teeth of a November bloodbath.

17 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

 

Sometimes I do wonder whether, if Mike Pence were murdered by that mob, would it have broken the MAGA fever that still grips this country? Would it have been a bridge too far for 80% or 90% of the people who are still MAGA today? Or would the Trump cabal have successfully muddied who did the murdering, pinning it on Antifa and BLM (or “BLT”, as some Washington Journal callers might have called them), and caused more chaos than we have seen since? I think that might have gone either way 50-50.

17 hours ago, romad1 said:

 

At least it should be shocking and outrageous, and it is to many people. But not to enough.

2 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Keep on freedom fighting! When you see that homeless vet in big shoulders make sure you raise your nose a little higher than usual mmm k?

NOW who’s ignorant and arrogant? But hey, at least you’re getting your money’s worth here.