boogiebunz

I figure Casey is still waiting for guys like Duren and Bagley and Burks to return so he can evaluate before making major rotation changes, especially in the starting line-up. I would guess around the 20-25 game mark, any changes to the starting line-up or decisions like permanently benching Hayes won't happen until then. But I also started this thread to address the Stewart/Bagley conversation I was having with betrayer instead of constantly bumping the Bucks game thread. I wanted to focus on Isaiah Stewart as a three point shooter and how it impacts the offense. One argument is that his shooting threes helps create spacing and balances the offense. I argue it does neither. Stewart shooting occasional threes actually does very little for the offense whether he makes them or not. Casey and the coaching staff are encouraging him to shoot them when he's open but he's still only attempting a couple a game. Maybe once in a great while he'll attempt 5-6. He's still not going to make more than 1-2 threes a game on most nights. And defenses will continue to be content with him making 1-2 threes and then playing off to help guard his teammates. Towards the end of last season, Stewart went three for three from three point range in a game. Any good shooter, any legitimate shooter makes his first three attempts from distance, they're not ending the game three for three. They're taking at least another three even if they miss them all. They're more likely to go three for six, three for eight than go three for three and then stop shooting. That's why him shooting doesn't do anything for the offense. Defenses will not defend him honestly unless he's a true scoring threat. Cade gets hot, Saddiq gets hot, they're liable to drop 30-35 points. Stewart gets hot from three, he's liable to make three three pointers and drop 13 points. That doesn't scare opposing teams. Stewart's offense is not good enough for opposing teams to guard him. They'll let him shoot open jumpers. And because he's small and doesn't jump at an elite level, he doesn't finish at the rim at a high percentage and they block him at the rim a lot. For his career, Stewart shoots 61.2% at the rim. Not terrible. But big men finishers often shoot 70% plus at the rim. Case in point, Bagley for his career shoots 72.4% at the rim. Legitimate scoring threat at the rim. When Stewart becomes closer to a idk 38-40% three point shooter and consistently takes 7-8 three attempts a game forcing defenses to respect it, then him shooting threes will impact how the offense will create spacing and balance. Until that happens, the impact of him shooting threes on the offense is insignificant.

Sure, agree to disagree. I would just like to point out that the basis of your argument for Stewart initially was that he was necessary for spacing. That’s the point you made. I offered an argument that because defenses don’t even guard him even if he does shoot threes, it actually doesn’t create spacing at all, which refutes that original argument for spacing. And you have not addressed that, but rather chose to point out different reasons other than spacing to advocate for Stewart.

Stewart in the starting line-up is not better for the offense regardless of what offense they run, Casey's or otherwise. When Bagley played last season, he still posted up, still ran pickandroll, still was a scoring threat... in Casey's offense. Stewart in Casey's offense still offers no real scoring threat other than "hey, shoot the occasional three since opposing teams don't even guard you." That doesn't help create spacing. That doesn't help the offense.

Running theme... lack of size, lack of interior scoring, lack of defensive resistance at the rim, getting dominated on the glass. It's not going to change anytime soon. Need size, length, athleticism upfront.

Cavs B squad straight clowning the Pistons. Painful to watch.

-I didn’t compare Golden State’s offense to Casey’s offense. Nor am I oblivious to the difference in talent and personnel in general of the two teams, let alone Curry’s ability as the best shooter in NBA history. I was just providing an example of two non spacing, non jumpshooting bigs in a starting line-up. You want another, look no further than the Pistons opponent tonight, the Cleveland Cavaliers with two non jump shooting big men, Mobley and Allen. And their offense is humming along just fine with them using Mobley as a part time facilitator and Allen almost exclusively a screen setter and finisher/offensive rebounder. -there are teams that still use big men in the midpost or high post to create spacing different than just four out or five out. Teams like Phoenix and Denver, good offensive teams, still sometimes utilize versions of a horns set with double high post bigs and create action off of that. Now obviously, when your bigs can also shoot, it makes it even more dangerous, but there are ways to play offense using the midpost and high post where the bigs don’t have to be three point threats. -playing two non shooting centers can work (let’s watch how the Cavs run their offense tonight) if you don’t just play isolation basketball one-on-one, drive and kick, which like 80% of the league now often reverts to for a big chunk of their halfcourt sets, thanks in large part to the likes of Darryl Morey and the James Harden Rockets. Two non shooting centers can work if you install an offense where players do more than just stand and watch and wait for the kick out three. -Stew is the better defender, but he and Bagley are comparable rebounders. Statistics are important, but context is also important. Stewart has often been the only interior rebounder for the Pistons, playing next to a couple small forwards in the frontcourt. He’s often the only one banging down low against opposing bigs. Bagley had played mostly PF in Sacramento playing alongside true centers like Willie Caulie Stein and Holmes. Context matters. I’m not suggesting he’s a better rebounder than Stewart. But I believe they’re comparable, regardless what the statistics say in and of themselves only without context. And Bagley is a more explosive jumper and a better, quicker second jumper. Stewart uses strength and position, which doesn’t always help against much taller guys who can jump higher. Bagley can jump with some of those types. -and I wasn’t arguing Bagley over Stewart anyway. I specifically talked about Bagley replacing Saddiq Bey. I don’t hate a Stewart and Duren duo, I just prefer to see what Bagley and Duren would do as a frontcourt tandem more. And here’s why. Stewart is not a scoring threat, not from three even when he shoots it, not down low in the post, not as an iso player or a pick and roll finisher, not a high percentage one anyway. Your initial argument for spacing doesn’t make sense with Stewart either, because even as he’s been willing to shoot the three, defenses do not respect it. And he’s not efficient enough for them to. Even if he makes 1 or 2 of them in a game, teams will still play off, still shade towards guys like Cade, Bogey, Bey, still double and leave Stewart open. Him shooting threes doesn’t actually create any better spacing, which was the basis of your argument. With Bagley, at least he’s a scoring threat in the post. He’s a capable scorer down low that demands the other team play defense on him. And while it’s not all the way out to the three point line, they aren’t simply going to leave him wide open. Bagley in the post may even create better spacing than Stewart at the three point line. injust really disagree with the notion that Stewart provides better spacing than Bagley would. Teams don’t even defend Stewart.

Bagley is not the answer at PF to defend the likes of Freak or Collins or Tatum. I'm not suggesting he's the answer. But he provides better length and if those elite PFs miss, he helps rebound the miss. Bey and Bogey certainly can't guard those types either and they as a forward tandem hurt team rebounding. Bagley replacing either (likely Bey) helps rebounding. He helps interior scoring. One of the issues with this team offense is it is very, even overly reliant on jumpshooting and one-on-one isolation by Cade, Ivey, and sometimes Bey and Bogey. But none of those guys are an automatic bucket one-on-one the likes of say Luka or Tatum or Durant. The offense will still stall at times. Even with Cade flashing great ability now and then and even with Bogey surprisingly good one-on-one off the dribble against lesser man defenders, it's not always a high percentage scoring opportunity. Bagley gives the starting unit a guy they can give the ball to in the midpost and get a high percentage shot when jumpers aren't falling and the offense goes on a drought. I think you mistake spacing for offensive players being spread apart. That's only part of the equation. That actual spacing is irrelevant if the defenders don't respect it. Isaiah Stewart has been a willing three point shooter. He's even made some threes, some big time threes. Defenders still play 10+ feet off of him. If defenders don't respect Stewart's three, the actual spacing means nothing because the defense isn't also spaced. Stewart has to not only be willing to shoot threes but also make something like at least 35% from three for that shooting to be significant enough to make the defense respect it. Otherwise, it's not really creating spacing. A willing 27% three point shooter does not create spacing. That's Josh Smith. And defenses are thankful when they shoot the three. Basketball has been around for a long time and playing with two big men can still work in today's game of three point shooting and pace. Cade at the strong side elbow, Bagley in the strong side midpost with a two man game. Bogdanovic weakside elbow, Ivey weakside corner and working the baseline, Duren setting picks for those two off the ball. And then he gets in the mix for offensive boards. There's give and take obviously, pros and cons. But four out or five out is not the only way to play offense today. In fact, that might be better than the heavy Cade or Ivey iso while the other four guys stand and watch. You can create spacing with two non shooters at PF/C. The four time championship Warriors start a non shooting PF/C tandem in Draymond and Looney.

I think because most of the egregious tanking happens in the final month or so of the season. And sometimes there might be a couple of teams whose records are already so bad by the all star break that the other bad teams can't catch them and so they can still tank without worrying about being a bottom two team. Making it after the all star break with the final 25-30 or so games, teams that are bad but aren't really, really bad can't tank without fear of being a bottom two. And the couple teams who were already the very worst in the league can get out of the bottom two in the final stretch of the season.

I got an idea to stop tanking. Don’t know if it makes sense or is feasible. The two teams with the worst records after the all star break cannot get a top 3 pick regardless of what their total season record is. The best they can do is the #4 pick. Thats it.

Also, as for Stewart on a contender, in my honest opinion, whatever role he would potentially play, it likely would have to be off the bench, not a starter. I don’t see him as a starter on any legitimate contending team, and certainly not on a team with a frontcourt that already lacks size and length and athleticism. Moreover, if Bogdanovic is one of the starting forwards, I don’t think Saddiq Bey can be the other starting forward on a legitimate contending team. The way I see the Pistons developing and morphing going forward, if Cade and Ivey are the starting backcourt, and either Bogey or Bey is a starting forward, I want size, length and athleticism at the two power positions. The Eastern Conference power forwards include Freak, Durant, Tatum, John Collins, Evan Mobley, Siakam. The better teams in the East have big men to deal with, and not just at the center position. In order for the Pistons to take a real step towards contending, they need some size and athleticism up front. Saddiq Bey, unfortunately, feels like the logical guy to put on the bench. If we could get a 23 year old Anthony Davis, that’s the prototype PF that would really make this team scary going forward. Hard to find, but I know it’s not Saddiq.

Spacing will continue to be an issue regardless if Bogey is the only one consistently making shots. Teams will continue to play off everyone else, even off Bey because he’s slow to shoot and he allows defenders to recover even when they play off. When Bogey pumpfakes, he pumpfakes to get open. When Saddiq pumpfakes, he pumpfakes just for the sake of pumpfaking, and then he often still doesn’t shoot it and forces a slow, deliberate drive. You put Bagley in the midpost and when he scores effectively, he will create spacing on that strongside. Plant Duren somewhere on the weak side and let him offensive rebound. Cade at the top, Bagley in the midpost, and Bogey on the opposite side elbow for a kick out is something that will be effective regardless of who the other two guys in the line-up are. Doesn’t make a huge difference between Stewart and Duren because the vast majority of the scoring will ultimately be on Cade, Bagley, and Bogey anyway. Even if you argue it hurts spacing offensively, I could counter that it helps with offensive rebounding, interior defense and contesting at the rim, and rebounding at both ends at such a more significant difference that it more than offsets any negative impact on spacing.

You can draw up great plays, intricate, brilliant plays. They may or may not work. May or may not outsmart the defense. But it still comes down to player execution. It was an extremely difficult shot, so the shooter obviously deserves a heck of a lot of credit. But that pass. About as perfectly executed a pass as you could make. That pass was everything.

This team will struggle against any team with size and length in the front court. They give up a ton of offensive boards, easy putbacks, and can't challenge at the rim. Against a team like the Bucks especially, it's exaggerated and magnified how small and unathletic the Pistons frontcourt is. It's a big reason I would still like to experiment with Bagley and Duren in the starting line+up, even at the expense of losing three point shooting.

I actually take little issue with Cade dominating the ball late in a close game. That's what he should be doing if he's the team's franchise player, now and going forward. Let him work out those kinks now on a bad team so that hopefully when this team gets good, he'll have that experience. Late in a close game, I want the offense to run through him pretty much exclusively, making the decision to shoot or get teammates good scoring opportunities like he did with Stewart several times. The only caveat is that I'd like Bogey to be the second option every time, other than Stewart when he has easy looks right at the basket. Even some guard to guard picknrolls between Cade and Bogey, so that both guys are scoring threats off that action. Those are the two best scorers. Use that to close out games. It doesn't have to be just a straight Cade iso every time.

Beating the Warriors made this loss much more tenable. I admired how much they scrapped despite the Bucks early hot shooting and no one other than Cade really playing well offensively in the first half. I've had enough of Killian. And Diallo scored a few buckets which is why I assume Casey kept him in for extended minutes. But once again, he looks terrible out there. Brings energy, but is just so bad offensively. Burks and Bagley replacing Hayes and Diallo off the bench will be a blessing.