KnoxP

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I agree with this to a point. I think there some of us, myself included, who need to sit back a bit and just enjoy the ride and be happy more often. I am elated they are 9-3, I truly am. I am elated that, barring a complete meltdown over the next 5 weeks, we are going to win the NFC North for only the second time in my entire life. I haven't had this much fun watching the Lions since the 2014 season and before that, since Barry, Herman Moore, Brett Perriman, and Robert Porcher were around. I do believe in what Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell are doing, most of the time. I have a few criticisms of decisions they have or have not made. Campbell sometimes is overly aggressive when I don't want him to be. He seems to give Aaron Glenn a pass at times for this defense when I feel Glenn should take more heat. He doesn't force schematic changes to the defense when I think there need to be some. He also agrees with Brad Holmes on some of the personnel decision that haven't worked out just yet (Levi, Paschal, Martin). But all in all, I am beyond happy with the state of this franchise.

What needs to be understood though, and this is by no means a slight at you or anyone, is that when you get good, the bar has to be raised. With raised expectations comes raised criticisms. As well, a raised bar doesn't mean that all is well overall. A raised set of expectations means the things fans will critique and criticize is different than it was before. We criticized Russ Thomas, Darryl Rogers, Wayne Fontes (Winningest coach in Lions history), Bobby Ross, Matt Millen, Martin Mayhew, Bob Quinn, Matt Patricia for rightly being downright awful at times or throughout the entirety of their tenures here. Campbell, Holmes, and company in no way deserve the kind of heat and level of criticism that say Matt Millen got.

One of the raised expectations that fans have is that we now not only win our division, but the expectation that we win the playoff game that we will host as well. On a side note, division winners should be granted a playoff birth. No one from the NFC South deserves to be in the playoffs this year as it stands now. So being the best of a very bad lot should not get you into the playoffs. Back on track though, winning a playoff game will be a key metric and measurement for this team and where we are truly at versus where we perceive we are at.

You mentioned negative fans and posters above. I've been one of those negative fans and posters along with a few others, when it comes to Aaron Glenn and this defense specifically for the past two seasons. The long and short of it is that many of us don't believe this defense is good enough to win us a playoff game. In-fact, we believe it is a liability that will cost us a game. This defense, on the whole, is a liability, and hurts our chances to win a playoff game. You can't keep asking this offense to carry the team every single week and go punch for punch with an opposing offense.

For example, if we had to play Seattle again, or any decent offense with an above average QB, which most all playoff teams have, it sure feels like we'd likely lose. Many fans have sat through years of one and done Lions teams in the playoffs and we want more than that. 1979, 1982, 1983, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2011, 2014, 2016 were all one and done Lions teams in the playoffs. The bar has been raised and many fans want more than that now. It doesn't matter if Brad Holmes, Dan Campbell, Ray Agnew, John Dorsey, Aaron Glenn, Sheila Ford, whoever in this organization thinks we are ahead of the schedule they originally had us on. What matters is our window to be a contending team for an NFC Championship and ultimately a Super Bowl is now open. In the NFL, your window doesn't stay open forever and you have to take advantage of the times it does open up. No, that doesn't mean you sell the farm like the Rams and go all in for one season. Though, I'd take a Super Bowl, even if it only meant one year of success. Shooting for anything less than a Super Bowl is a complacent, losers mentality.

Right now, Aaron Glenn and this defense feel like a liability. It feels like they might be likely actively preventing us from winning a playoff game, let alone multiple playoff games, to be able to get to a Super Bowl. Some of the stats don't look all that bad on first glance. I believe we are 10th in defensive DVOA. We're also middle of the pack, not bottom tier, when it comes to total yards given up and yards per game. A big part of that is the very solid run defense that we have. Major props to Brad Holmes for the player acquisitions he's made to improve this run defense. Props to Aaron Glenn for the scheme and position he's put these guys in to be able to effectively stop the run as well.

But counter to that we're 12th from the bottom in total passing yards, we're bottom 10 in total points scored against. We're bottom 5-10 in blitz rate, win rate, QB pressures/hurries, total sacks and sacks per game as well. This seconday looks like a sieve at times. He has Jerry Jacobs out there in man coverage, with no safety help. Asking any CB, let alone a second string guy like Jacobs, to hold coverage for longer than 5 seconds is a problem. He needs reliable safety help over the top out there and shouldn't be on a coverage island by himself.

I also get it right, QB sacks and pressures don't paint a full picture and tell the full story about a team. Just look at a team like the Browns, great defense, mediocre offense, no QB, and a team that's on the downward trend. I'd rather be us, with our defense and a healthy QB, than them on the full decline with a QB out for the season.

Sacks and pressures are defensive stops though. Sacks and pressures create turnovers and stop drives. Sacks and pressures force punts. Sacks and pressures mean you disrupt plays and provide support for your secondary and LB'ers in coverage. You can't expect any secondary, no matter the talent level, to hold coverage for 5-6-7+ seconds. Any CB or S is going to get burnt or won't be able to contain tight coverage for that amount of time. I believe, and I think there are others who do as well, that this defense is a liability to us winning in the playoffs. We believe this because of our inability to pressure opposing QB, our poor coverage at times, and the scheme Glenn is employing by generally, only rushing 4.

Example, even though we won yesterday it felt extremely lucky. This defense got carved up in the second half. Yesterday, they allowed the Saints to march right back in and almost get the win. Had Derek Carr not gotten hurt and knocked out of the game, that sure feels like a loss for us. Jameis Winston is not an accurate or good QB. He had Chris Olave sitting in the middle of the field wide open and he didn't even look him off and make the throw late in the 4th quarter. That feels like a throw Carr would have made

The other thing that gets me and some other fans is the Aubrey Pleasant situation from last year. I'm not trying to manufacture consensus when I say this, but we were told last year it was incorrect and flat out wrong believe that Aubrey Pleasant was a scapegoat for the poor defensive performance. That indeed, it was wrong to blame Aaron Glenn for most or any of this defense's problems and that it was largely Pleasant's fault. Things did get better for a time after Pleasant was let go, but it feels like we have regressed back down. I don't think our inability to get after the QB, to generate pressure, to cover mobile QBs, or to hold coverage for 5+ seconds was/is Aubrey Pleasant's fault. I think that is the fault of the personnel they have (which injuries play a role in) and the defensive coaching staff up to and including Aaron Glenn.

In the end, the bar has been raised and there are different expectations from a year ago and from regimes of Lions teams past. I love where we are at as a franchise right now. I love Dan Campbell and Ben Johnson. I love Jared Goff, most weeks. I love Amon'Ra St. Brown, Sam Laporta, David Montgomery. Pennie Sewell, Frank Ragnow, Jonah Jackson. I love the players and weapons Brad Holmes has added on offense and what this coaching staff has done with them. Watching the Lions overall is incredibly fun. I do believe we are setup for years to come on offense. I do not feel that way yet about our defense. I do not feel that we yet have the right personnel and scheme to get us out of the first round of the playoffs. Maybe that all changes when James Houston comes back and we can generate more pass rush and pressure. Maybe it changes because some else steps up or Aaron Glenn makes adjustments. I'd really like to hope and think so. I'd really like to be proven wrong and for us to win a playoff game and make a run for it!

Tater Salad, that took some time and it was clear.
I am fine w/fair minded criticism and increasing expectations.

All fair points devoid of the wild extremes and hyperbole.

👍

1 hour ago, djhutch said:

I try to be a realist when it comes to the Lions - We've all been burnt so many times - but I cannot for the life of me figure out why some people do nothing but bitch about this team.  The hyperbole is beyond ridiculous & the fact that when things are going well you hear CRICKETS .. 1 bad thing & they're the worst team in history. Why follow a team that makes you like this?  & if you like the team, for crying out loud SHOW IT ONCE!

My only explanation is that it is a show. How extreme can the post be, then go farther. There is no reasonable reason to expect otherwise, but I have also heard “you can’t reason with the unreasonable “…evidence above.

The ignore function seems to work well. 

13 hours ago, number20 said:

Will the Lions win this game? I'll predict they.... 

..."somehow find a way not to lose" 😁

 

I’ll take it!

9 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Especially since they lost to the Lions and only scored 20 on an Aaron Glenn defense. 

I said in an earlier post somewhere, Philadelphia and SF are the best 2 right now and SF just took a big leap fwd. The Lions are among a large group of next tier teams. I’m expecting every week to be a fight from here on. While 21-0 turning into 33-28 doesn’t feel great, they did enough and l’ll take the W with a smile.

Been fun for a while, time to check out.

1 minute ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Please go up 21 to 0

And don’t let up!  

6 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Fumble on the snap.    Wow,  Jared's a mess. 

FWIW, looked like Ragnow was late to snap the ball, everyone was moving before he did.

37 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

In regards to the fake punt, I don't necessarily think GB was expecting it but more so that they happened to be lined up perfectly to stop it. ...

Also I don't buy into the not being able to sneak up on teams anymore. We were one of the most hyped teams all offseason who won 8 of 9 to end the year. Then went and beat the defending champs in their place, that is more than enough for teams to start talking you seriously....

 

On the punt we may be splitting hairs. Expecting it vs. 'hey this may be', not being surprised can yield the same result. Was lined up perfectly just a happy accident or did GB lineup in case?

I love DC and his boldness, it has served well. Teams are prepping for his boldness, they must be adjusting. 

On the 'sneak up', that's really my point. We are being taken seriously.

Read/heard two things recently.

1) Suggests Lions are no longer able to surprise their opponent.  This is both in what they term as grit and in talent. Over the past year they've lost only 5 games.  The honeymoon is over. No sneaking up on anyone anymore.

2) Campbell's bold in-game gambles are also now not a surprise. Game 1 @ KC, 4th and 4 fake punt in own end was 😲.  Against GB similar situation, I was even half expecting it. 

Bottom line, opposition is adapting to what's now a larger data set for Campbell, Johnson and Glenn. Lastly, outside the top and bottom extremes there isn't much separation between NFL teams, "parity" is a real thing.

Still have faith and that home playoff game still looks like a legit outcome. Love it!

ASIDE...wonder if N.O. takes the ball first if they win the coin flip. Balt. and GB both did it and put us on our heels. 

Love seeing Day all worked up 

48 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

...I also concede that I am just a fan and not a 15 year NFL vet like Glenn was on top of all of his coaching history. Between him and Campbell there has to be a reason why they are reluctant to other than them just being terrible at what they do. 

Yes.

This is just a message board and by definition this is where we cite our expertise as armchair coaches, myself included. From this seat, I embrace 8-2 and currently the #2 seed. I think evidence supports that our offense is what will carry us in tight games. Is this team strong enough to make a run to a conference championship game. At this point I say yes.  Room for improvement ... always.

I did not expect this much at this point and we still have 7 weeks to go.  Lots will happen between here and there. 

Still, as lordstanley said earlier, blowouts are welcome.

35 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Yeah everybody complains about Glenn and I get it it's frustrating when you see teams carve you up and it's easier to blame the DC but considering the injuries and just overall talent level on the defense I don't think they have been THAT bad and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a DC that would be much better. 

I mean look at who Glenn has to work with, Hutch is a beast but even he isn't a Myles Garrett type outside of him you have McNeil who would start on most teams but that would prob be it on the d line. Anzalone has been solid this year but that has been offset by Campbell being one of the worst LBs in the league, hopefully that is just due to being a rookie.

In the secondary you have Sutton who is good but again it's not like he is a bonafide number 1, if he was we wouldn't have gotten him for what we paid. I love Branch but like Campbell he is still a rookie and prone to some lapses not to mention him probably not being 100%.

Add it all up and I just think it's unfair to expect that good of defense with the players they have. Maybe you can argue they should blitz more but then you have guys like Jacobs being left on an island. 

Yea, that’s a good summary of my opinion. And having only Hutch creating pressure a mobile QB can escape, which means open space to scramble/run and/or db’s needing to cover extended time. Fast QB gonna run and good WR gonna eventually get open. Especially with a guy like Jacob’s and even with a better corner like Sutton. 

22 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Hard to say for sure. I mean the whole appeal of a running QB is that it makes it harder for a defense so we should expect to running QBs to be harder to defend in general.

This...

Also if it is 'scheming' someone explain what should be done vs what was done.  Things listed above sound more like execution vs scheming, but that's just me.  Open to hearing from anyone...

Just now, Motor City Sonics said:

Okay Aaron Glenn,  show us what you worked on during Halftime. 

They held Chi to 3 after the opening drive…

17 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

And an 8 minute TD drive would be sweet.

It was nice to wish… 🫤

D looks like it adjusted some against those designed Fields runs after the first drive. Secondary still frustrating me some…but we up!

Underwhelming as this has been, up by 4 & getting the ball  back after half! 👍🏻

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

LOL - Thanks for that!

Ironically, the only people I've ever argued about this with were all born post word processor.

I remember doing a lots of search and replace for two spaces back to one on final assembled copies of bid documents when we had several people working on them.

The other tidbit is that IIRC, the IBM 'Selectric' typewriter was capable of proportional spacing even before the word processor era, though I couldn't tell you how it actually did space after a period. 

OR make each sentence it's own paragraph! 😉

16 hours ago, number20 said:

 😄 😄

Want to know how to spot the old geezers on this forum? Look for double-spacing between sentences. It's an old carryover from the manual typewriter days. Everyone was taught to double space back then to offset the problem of monospaced typesetting. It has nothing to do with punctuation (single-spacing has always been correct). Word processors eliminated the need for double-spacing decades ago. After around 1990, any typing class still teaching to double-space after a sentence was way behind the times.

And sorry all you curmudgeons, but don't even go there with me. I use to run a tech publishing department. I get this all the time. Single-spacing is correct, double-spacing is NOT, and hasn’t been since forever. Print, web... you name it, every professional publication out there correctly single-spaces between sentences. And it’s been that way for years and years. If you don’t believe me, go look for yourself. Even Microsoft Word’s spell check flags double-spacing as an error

Listen here kid! It is an old habit that is/was hard to break. I got grief for it here at work. Go easy on the old geezers, we bring wisdom. 😀

43 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

Speaking of the defensive backfield, during the gameday thread I think I read a couple of people speculating whether or not Branch was injured or something  I haven’t heard anything like that post-game though, so was it just people looking for an explanation as to why the Lions were getting lit up?

Hey Lord, I think the comments were more like ...he started the year so strong, was everywhere making plays, and has not been the same since he was out a couple games back with that ankle injury...

Definite looking for some explanation...but not a new injury...

13 hours ago, TP_Fan said:

...Outside of the red zone we have the best OC in football...

What?

I am older than most, but I can't keep up with this.  Growth is good.

Just now, Tigerbomb13 said:

Would it be too much to ask to hold them to a FG?

Unless ity4th and long a FG attempt is not happening 

TD. Should not be reversed.

9 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Philly tried to give it away but Dallas choked it back. Horrible offensive and defensive sequence. 

Refs certainly tightened up “illegal procedure” on that last Dallas possession. Compare it against the KC game. Continuing to despise Dallas keeps getting easier…

Ravens took care of Seahawks…easily. 👍🏻