alex

45 minutes ago, SeattleMike said:

He’s 26. If he hasn’t figured it out by now unlikely he ever will. 

True for some. Yet, baseball is not a game where you have a set roster each year and if lucky a consistent roster on a good team. All teams have a percent of players coming and going to go along with regulars. Many players also figure things out at different stages of their career - even if only for a half season, a couple years, etc. Then more adjustment by the opposition. Baseball is a game of adjustments.

Not saying Maton will or will not 'figure it out' but he might become a useful player for Detroit and or other teams. So many wrote of JCandelario, Willie Castro, etc. the list is endless throughout the years and the latter two are contributing this year on winning teams.

Just saying you have to have a lot of depth in any organization this day and age - and many players can help on a team that is winning or playing it out, even if it is just for a year or two, etc.

46 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Didnt realize Stanton had 400 bombs. Yeah he's been breaking down over the years but in the games he plays he still hits them at an elite rate so only being 33 I could see him maybe getting to 500.

If he doesnt its hard to see any player getting there in the next 10-15 years, maybe Manny Machado or Judge if he keeps hitting 50+ a year but both are far from sure things. 

Yes, those types of records that used to assure HOF status are NO longer. ex 3000 hits, 500 HRs, 300 wins, etc...

Due to health and injuries, that are so much more common now - you may never see (possible rare exceptions) those milestone/numbers again (ex a player career starting from 2010+).

It may be more of a 10-15+ year career with a 'good' amount of games played, some nos. (ex HRs, career BA/OBO, WAR, etc.) along with MVP(s), CY Young award (s), WS and team successes, etc. - the criteria more than likely will 'have' to change.

The two previous posts (JimCowan & Mtutiger), IMHO, hit spot on for the Candy situation.

Hindsight will always be 20/20 and Echoes repeatedly mentioned (and of course a few others) before hand about keeping him and letting Schoop go - but no doubt contract status was 'part' of that decision as well.

9 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I am cheerfully disagreeing!  I want to be like the Braves, they roll out the same 8 guys, plus a catcher, every night and they don't give a crap about defensive versatility or L/R matchups.  They accomplished this by finding good players, not chess pieces.  What has changed, for us long time fans, is that the best athletes don't play baseball anymore.  They play point guard, or read option quarterback.  And that makes the Braves' accomplishment so much more impressive, and of course the best Caribbean or Venezuelan athletes don't play point guard or read option quarterback so maybe that's a clue.

I agree with the cheerful disagree! 😀

However, unfortunately Atlanta is one of the outliers that I mentioned, which occasionally can happen - and yet we are NOT thru the season and post-season yet.

Unfortunately recent history will show just about no teams have 6-8 starting position players posting/starting 150 games anymore.

Believe me I loved the days when we (as baseball fans) could rattle off starting lineups for most of the 'good' teams and the starters did play/start 150 games at 'most' (not all) positions. IMHO, there are several reasons why this simple does not happen much anymore (again, similar to SP's where teams simply do NOT have say 3 SP's giving them 200 innings, heck even 175) 🤕.

22 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Yes the outfield is set - Greene, Meadows and Carpenter.  600 PA's each, unless some or all of them screw up the first 200.  There is a need for 2 more OF/DH types, that's Malloy and Baddoo.  The bench is Vierling, McKinstry, whichever OF/DH isn't playing, and a catcher.

Baez and Torkelson play every day, and Rogers catches 120 games.  There are big holes at 3B and 2B...can Keith play one?  Can Eddys Leonard play the other?  It seems like if Harris can find an MLB regular in trade to improve the lineup it should be an every day player at 3B or 2B.

I agree with most all of this. However, the one thing long time baseball fans seem to forget is that the game has changed. Injuries are more prevalent than ever. Long gone are the days of penciling in 5-7 position players for 600 AB's or 150 games played. That simply does not happen anymore (there may be an occasional outlier). Just like SP and 3 guys on a team throwing 200 innings - simply - 'does not compute' anymore Will Robinson, lol.

With said they are building 'some' depth and will have more players to chose from it seems (Leonard, WPerz, Malloy, etc... Heck even JJung has been looking good and perhaps does not get enough attention).

Back to starting players - in a similar fashion most teams know they need 10 SP 'options' in the org to 'potentially' give apx 125-150 innings at the MLB level these days.

Again, your post makes sense and reads well - but depth is utmost this day and age.

IMHO, I would personally like to see Scott Harris somehow come up with a MLB hitter who can perhaps be here for awhile via trade this off season. Yea FA's are thin this up coming off season as KDog, Echoes and many others have pointed out and like players, the GM needs to show he can do the job as well. A player who can help and be an influence on this team as it needs a professional 'bat' in the order and 2B or 3B seems to be the area (or SS and move Javy to 2B). They will miss Miggy, not for production at this point - but as a 'been there, done that' influence and mentor. All the more reason for adding a 'Professional' bat (or two).

17 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

On the radio this morning Scott Harris said they were bringing someone in today, but it was NOT a call up from the Minors. 

 

Hmm, just throwing a dart out there. Maybe someone like Noah Syndergaard might be a player who may feel we could help him get better - this is what the Tigers like to advocate. Maybe similar to Carson Kelly, where for not only this year but next year 'could' be a part of a deal.

He was also pretty close to MLorenzen while they were both playing for Los Angeles.

Again, just a dart throw, lol. Of course there has been other players from teams recently DFA, released, etc.

14 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I always assumed Bergman was a good teammate since he wasn't that good, but had a pretty long career.  He was good enough to be a useful role player, but not good enough to start.  Those kinds of players are not always kept around long.  

Met Dave Bergman several times, had several more than casual conversations with him as well. IMHO, he was always professional. Also, FWIW, Sparky liked him a lot and he played for him for quite a while - we all know that/his old so said quote (perhaps myth, lol) 'My way or the highway' so it seems 'Bergy' was good to be around from that perspective as well.

10 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Jung's power and numbers in general have been really good this year but it doesnt seem to have translated in the scouting views as it seems like most if not all haven't changed their views on him at all this year in terms of his grade or ranking.

Yes, It seems JJung gets a bit overlooked with CKeith on board - but he is looking more & more legit as an offensive player. His defense seems to be limited, but if he can play decent at 2B - that might be all it takes 'if' he is a plus offensive player.

Holy Toledo Box score 'Bat' man ! 😄

https://www.milb.com/gameday/mud-hens-vs-bats/2023/08/22/723344/final/box

1 hour ago, SeattleMike said:

He’s only 22 and has had some success at the plate in the minors. Considering he was acquired for cash not a bad flyer. 

He was fairly well touted for a good minute at an early age in a loaded LAD system. If he can improve his D a bit - he was always seen as an offensive prospect with some pop and decent speed, BTW 22 at AAA is still young!

Thank you for posting. Yes, Mr. Price deserves his own thread. Long time fan of listening to him and Dan Dickerson the radio. He stood in the game as long as he could. He told you how things were, esp later on.

I also had the honor of meeting him at one of the Old Tiger Stadium weekend Fantasy Camps. I remember it will, him tossing some Ps to me as I swung away for some hitting practice. Then Ernie came by to sit in the dugout and talk to several participants. Northrup, Horton and others participated as well.

"Late Movement" and "He put a severe buggy whip on that one" are the sayings I most remember.

Peace and onto 'The Field of Dreams' Jimbo  😇

6 minutes ago, oblong said:

Deserves his own thread.  He was a good man.  He was also a very nice man.

May Jack's Place for Autism live on.

 

 

56 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I think they've kind of moved on from him like they have with Austin Meadows.      Has there been ANY news on him lately?   It's almost like he never existed.   

I believe he is playing tonight for Toledo in game 1 of the DH.

34 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Which gets to the fact that "other options" aren't contractually obligated to remain "other options" and are free to pivot to different trade pieces as well.

In the Tigers case, I think the market for JV may have been a factor too... his deal was a major logjam to getting something done, but it took a lot of time (almost 24 hours, I believe) to get that resolved. Once it did and the Dodgers were lined up, there wasn't a lot of room for error for getting it done from a time perspective.

Sounds sensible.

Some simple speculation:

I posted late last week on one of the threads here that the NYM could throw a 'monkey wrench' into all of this by making Max and JV available. It happened, though still...

I would bet that Cincy and Balt did not make offers that SHarris felt good with (ex being what Balt gave up for JFlaherty and Cincy did almost nothing and both were said to be looking at SP). SHarris held his ground (a good thing for any future trade talks). Then JV became available near the end of the deadline and the Tigs had to wait for that to be resolved the afternoon of  because the LAD had interest. Then once JV chose Houston then the LAD had to pivot.

Maybe previously the jest was worked out with LA with an ERod deal, it was then 'OK'd on by all fronts - but when the actual time came 'something' changed - ERod/family changed their minds, LAD changed what could have been an extension approach, etc. - WHO KNOWS.

I also see that the Tigs did do a cash deal with the LAD late yesterday for Inf Eddys Leonard (top 15 prospect out of the LAD system) whom was designated for assignment I believe late last week. He 'possibly' could have been part of the agreed 'package' coming from the LAD. If nothing else it would seem the two sides were talking previously.

Again, just some speculation...

One thing I do wish to see is a more balanced approach on the player acquisition front. There is a pattern of contact middle Infs who can take a walk it seems: McKinstry, Ibanez (not too many BB here), Maton, JRizzo, NSolak, JCamargo, ZShort, Now Lee and Leonard after yesterday. Even the draft - the second and third picks. Lest not forget to look at C, OF and P as well 😉

9 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Not too many catchers catch 140 games.  120 would be nice.  

Correct.

Gone are the days of 3-4 SPs on a team pitching 200+ innings (lucky if 165) or 7-8 position players on a team literally starting 140 or more games each (let alone catchers). Sure there 'may' be an outlier team once in the while for a season.

I personally hope that MLB and the union realize a 27-28 man roster is more the route today, but it took a long time to get it to just 26.

12 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

I'm not a big Harris fan either. At least, not yet. He's made a couple of good moves but also a few questionable ones. I don't dislike him but I will be a fan if he builds a winner. Let's give him a couple of years. Chris has to open the pocketbook though.

8 hours ago, Cruzer1 said:

Open the pocketbook like the Mets? I'd rather be prudish and gather cheap talent like the Rays.

I think in the Tigers case it may be more of the latter but some of the former will be needed.

I would like/hope to see the current regime come up with a player or two 'this deadline' in a trade that can be potential long term answers for the team. I totally agree with the 'resident' GM on MLB Network last eve when he said (paraphrasing) 'The Tigers have a chance to help themselves this trade deadline' . 

Of course it is easier said than done. Yet, pitching is always in demand, this is a bit more of a sellers market this year and there is competition for some of our arms (again according to 'some' reports). What may be a monkey wrench is what will the NY Mets do with their Aces'?

SHarris needs to hold his ground, but I find it hard to believe someone will not pony up - then again, one club in particular whom we might match well with - Baltimore is VERY tough to work a deal with, but sooner or later (will it be now and even a deal with Detroit) they have to realize they do not need 2-3: 2B's, SS's, etc. They are pretty stacked.

34 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

One week to go. ERod and Lorenzen will (must) be moved. Would be very surprised if they are the only ones. 90% of the organization are Avila's guys. Buyers outnumber sellers this year. Scott "Calculated Risk" Harris can go a little crazy.

Agreed. It 'may' be a sellers market to an extent. Yet, will teams like Baltimore, Cincy, etc. go for it and break there previously practiced approaches?

However, even an extension may not be a bad idea for one of the SPs.

With said I hope they do not settle on 'volume' returns as was mentioned earlier here (had enough of that with previous deals/regime) and go more for higher end types - even if we have to put in a prospect/RP or two (not our top prospect guys) - in order to get that type of return.

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Meadows is reportedly a better defender which might make a difference in how he's perceived if he struggles offensively.  I still think Baddoo should have spent more time in the minors, but you can't go back in time.  He'll probably have a hard time getting another extended shot in the majors.  

Yea, Baddoo may need to change his approach and stance. I am not a hitting instructor of course (have coached youth league : ) - but IMHO he may need more of a open/lean back, bat closer to shoulder type angle... He has shown to have something in him (previously and at times), but his barrel rate is just too low. He is the type of player that 'could' do well at/in Comerica Park, but for awhile now that it has not been translating.

Hope he figures somethings out - and yes PMeadows will be at the door soon.

9 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/07/astros-rays-showing-interest-in-michael-lorenzen.html

Michael Lorenzen is one of the top rental starting pitchers who could move between now and the August 1 trade deadline. The Rays and Astros are among the contending clubs that have shown interest in the Tigers’ righty, reports Jon Morosi of MLB.com (Twitter link).

Yes, Tampa has some young talent/depth. IMHO a player like Vidal Brujan plus maybe a young arm. Brujan is 'not' going to get a real chance there and just a year+ ago he was a top 100 on a couple sites. Switch hit, versatile, excellent speed, contact ability, good arm & still young. Could bat atop the order (ex at 2B) and lengthen the lineup.

Question what is the value there if Tampa is not going to really play him, have others coming up the ranks now and they need P?

They also have Greg Jones SS, Carson Williams SS, Willy Vasquez Inf, etc. All seem to be 'potential' starting Inf/versatile pieces. Maybe we have to add a reliever to make a multi player deal... Houston has Pedro Leon Inf/OF as one player (also SP Colton Gordon). Just 'spitballing' names. Of course SHarris may be looking more at lower level players.

2 hours ago, casimir said:

The Tigers have never really had a good defensive OF since moving into Commercial Park.  One would think that would be a priority, but it hasn't been.  Maybe after 20some previous years and 3 previous GMs it can be something to look at?

Maybe one more reason they drafted Max Clark.

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

How do we add hitters without trading prospects? I don’t see it. And how do we justify giving six more years to Eduardo through age 36 and letting Lorenzen walk after the year for nothing, when we still have an entire hitting structure to rebuild? I don’t see that either.

I know everyone wants to win NOW, and I’d like to win this year, too, but I would rather take that run with the guys we have after trading Eduardo and Lorenzen and Cisnero and, if we can get something great for them, Lange and/or Foley. I don’t want to start trading guys like Colt Keith and Jace Jung and Wilmer Flores and Ty Madden and Parker Meadows to try and pick up some second division veteran hitter Paul Goldschmidt or Eugenio Suarez or Ryan McMahon. And I’d bet money Scott Harris is selling regardless of how we do in the next week and a half.

Sounds like this might be the plan.

Yet, if they continue to play well perhaps they could extend Lorenzen (2 for 20?) - why because we are going to have to pay another vet SP 'something' this FA season and I do not see SHarris dolling out big multi year contracts (see SF history as well). That and many SPs are not getting the extended deals that they got before as teams are wising up and 1-2 yrs for what amounts to SPs that 'may' throw 150 innings is going to be more common (IMHO). There is always a few outliers but no longer the norm.

SHarris may only pull a deal if he likes it, depending of course on the players involved. I do not see him doing so because he might have to (I understand you did not say that as well). There looks to be more a 'Sellers' market - and pitching is always in demand.

ERod? Maybe just offer funds to the 3 years left? I cannot see him getting 6 years. He and his agent have to weigh it based on several factors of course including if he likes it here.

Nobody not named Ohtani really is in line for 5-6 years (maybe JUrias?).

Adding? I really do not think you need to trade a 'top' prospect. Maybe a mid range player and there may be teams looking to rid 'some' payroll as that is a factor as well. Again, IF SHarris is thinking of adding a veteran bat this off season, and a player comes up in the next week or so who may fit... Could also trade a younger player for another younger player who SHarris and staff may like more.

Go Tigs! 😉

6 minutes ago, Dtrain72 said:

If we ever see Haase in the outfield again, AJ deserves a bucket of tomatos thrown at him...and that's not even mentioning that Haase also cant hit🍅🍅🍅

Yes, Marisnick was even hitting better than Haase - though the hope is Haase breaks out. In the field nothing to compare.

However, 26 man roster decisions are not just the manager - the GM may have as much, if not more to say about it. This happens more as we are always trying to 'mix and match' - seems Short and Haase have been quite non-productive hitting wise for awhile now (Short does play good D at a few positions and this has value).

We could use some production. Not sure what it is with Haase - but because he can C and the Ps like him...

On 7/15/2023 at 9:32 PM, Tenacious D said:

Look around—other can’t-miss guys have struggled, too.  Joey Bart, CJ Abrams, Jerred Kellenic, Alex Kirilloff, JJ Bleday, Nick Madrigal—none has lived up to their hype (yet). Heck, Austin Martin, who was heavily debated as a potential alternative to drafting Tork, has yet to make the majors.

 

Yes, well put, people tend to only reflect on the home team (or team followed more than others) that is relative to them. Objectively, there are many 'Top Prospects' that struggle initially or shortly after the league adjusts and some just plain do not make it - even after some success.

Tork is coming along. He may not be 'living up to expectations' but in reality he is making positive strides (IMHO and that of others) and hopefully will have a long productive career over time.

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

Sorry, but that’s a bunch of BS.  Baez is a veteran with a 1.5 year track record with us.  His defense is good enough to stay at SS, but his bat is a black hole.  He’s good because he stays healthy?

And his salary might not hurt us  next season, but soon we may want to start investing in signing core players long term, when what we’re paying him will matter.  As well as payroll considerations for future free agents...

 

Points taken. I am not saying Javy is good because he has been on the field - but that aspect has value. I would say 'yes' he should perform 'stat' wise better than he has. With said he is apx 6th in RBI's for shortstop's in leagues combined at this time (July 14). That is decent - but IMHO, he could be a better offensive player (he certainly was with the NYM).  Yet, that more than likely will not happen because of his chase rate and as you mentioned some decline perhaps is showing up - yet, I maintain, he is a talented in several ways.

The last regime identified him as a 'core' piece to go with the Mize, Manning, Skubal, Greene, Tork, etc. young core - but injuries have so far derailed that core - so I am saying the injury 'factor' is not really taken into consideration from fans when planning how a season may look. JLeyland had been quoted before often saying 'Your best ability is your availability'. IMHO, I feel there is value there.

Front offices and fans cannot go into each season and say by June 'We have injuries so now we cannot compete (ex RGReene, TSkubal, CMize, etc. for Detroit two years in a row. AJudge,  CRodon, NCortes, HBader - NYY, Boston has had many injuries, LAD, The ChiSox, etc., etc.).'  I am again saying this aspect of baseball is more prominent now than before. Depth has to be there.

All things being equal the team with the most healthy good players (depth included) stands a better chance of winning more games. 

Depth comes from draft & development (hopefully now this gets better), scouting the league and knowing when to get someone (ex a ZMcKinstry, AGarcia of Texas, LGurriel of AZ, etc.), signing a FA, etc. I do feel this regime is and will be better at ID 'potential' players - but no question some luck is always involved because of injuries - and today they are more prominent than before and hence depth must be part of the planning.

Hopefully, in the future say 28 man rosters may be realized. Maybe a few less games played with more scheduled off days. Bring back old fashioned DH's on the schedule ex 2 per team or so. Recovery can help things go along ways. Today's athletes are in better condition than ever - yet, closer to being over-trained than ever before (hence more recovery time is needed) and that may have a bit to do with the injuries. Organization's are beginning to understand this better - but the above few changes, IMHO, could also help.

57 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

moving Baez is only important if they are pushing up against Ilitch's payroll max (whatever that is) and they aren't

as it stands, they may not have a $100M payroll next year, even with Baez

downgrading to Short to save some cash seems like a backwards move

IMHO, it is all rather funny. People often want to sign and then if they do not work out 'entirely' quickly rid FAs. To then sign similar players, lol. FAs are always a crapshot.

Something many may still miss is that health is so underrated and therefore depth is not yet appreciated by most fans. Players who can stay on the field are hard to find (see any team). Simply, a bit of luck is involved here. The Tigs will have more injuries here in the second half (as WILL ALL teams).

Most liked the ERod & Javy moves at the time. Personally I still do. Javy is talented. He just needs to step it up a notch by means of 'focus' (I feel when games get out of hand he loses focus and patience even more). He (or anyone) needs a stronger surrounding cast that what is here currently (we all know that) and hence not to put so much pressure on one player (like in Chicago & NY), regardless of salary.

The Tigers are a MLB team, hence should have an MLB payroll. MiLB should have MiLB payroll allotments (per parent team). Point being they need to have X in payroll regardless to be competitive. You find out who is part of a nucleus, what position, what costs to add, etc.

Maybe toward year end you decide Javy moves to second IF they seek to sign another SS (ex Tim Anderson, etc.) and that right there prompts him to opt out. Or, he is ok with that and you still get a another SS (again this helps with depth as well).

Again, IMHO, Javy is quite talented. We have all seen the plays. He can hit a bit as well. He has won before. However, he has to figure out the focus & throws to first aspect a bit better.

On 7/11/2023 at 6:16 PM, RandyMarsh said:

I just read an article that says that the MLBPA want to add time to the pitch clock for the postseason or maybe allow for extra timeouts to give pitchers more time. 

I'm not against that per se but I just worry that it could be a slippery slope where it starts with the playoffs and then next thing you know it will carry over to the regular season in the future. If I knew for sure that wouldn't happen then I'd be ok with them adding some time to it since the playoffs are generally more high stressed high pressured situations. 

I have mentioned before, IMHO, I think the clock should be given a break once a P reaches 10 Ps (or 12... ) for each batter. This allows more recovery time for a P. Once a P and batter get to that many Ps it then seems to really take a toll on a P.

Maybe like an extra 30 seconds, one time, once the P/batter confrontation reaches that 10 pitch point.

To change anything during the playoffs, as some have mentioned, may wish to be later implemented to get it done during the season as well. That might be a step backwards for the game.

Again, IMHO, I feel the P clock, base sizes, no shifts, etc. have really helped the enjoyment and pace of the game - and I consider myself a baseball purest as have been following a looong time. FWIW, if MLB did not implement those changes I would think the game would of continued to be less attractive to many current and future fans.