alex

1 hour ago, IdahoBert said:

This is really thoughtful and it took a lot of time. Thanks for doing it.

Thank you sir 🙏

6 hours ago, kdog said:

Good post.

Thanks. I appreciate the serious (and true) fans that are all here. We all have our thoughts and opinions. These (and more) are my observations so far of the current regime.

3 hours ago, kdog said:

I would love to see it. We don't know yet if Harris is ready to take risks and make baseball trades. I don't think they are going to be adding veterans on long term contracts.

Petzold's take was that Harris is going to point to the McGonigle, Briceno, and Clark wave as the next stage of contention. It might be guess work but I don't see a path of making this team good unless he is ready to multiple major league hitters to the team.

1 hour ago, kdog said:

I hope you're right. I'm tired of restarting the cycle.

All IMHO, I have been saying for some time SHarris (and the current regime) have to start adding the right pieces yesterday. This 'core group' thing is just kicking the can down the road. All GMs have the job to not only identify what the team will look like now, but two years from now and further.

Current Team: they have to be able to tell what players fit. They have been evaluating now for 1 1/2 yrs. It does not have to be conclusive, but a good idea should be there and if not - the wrong people are in charge. The other players then can be potentially dealt if better value can come back (in their eyes).

Trades: Here is where some things can be done 'now'. They do not have to wait. Identify a player(s) they like and get one or two. You do not have to trade your top 4-5 prospects per say to get a player on a team that is young but his position is blocked (see LAD, Balt., etc.) and/or another MLB decent player who a team may wish to rid ex expiring contract, etc.

IF we do not think Mize, Manning, Tork, Baddoo, etc. are not 'core' players then I bet there are teams out there willing to take some of these under their wing.

I would like to see a value for value trade. Perhaps we see someone who we feel can help us out, who is in the same boat on another team - then we can use that phrase 'come here and get better' . Prove it.

A good GM can identify and make trades. We need to find a Carlos Guillen, JD Martinez, Doug Fister, GSheffield, etc. type. Sure not all will work out, but some players have to be obtained this route... So far? Maybe Vierling, Lee, JHM. Yet, (a lot more versatile INF types who seemingly 'work the count': Kennedy, Maton, Rizzo, Skolak, Nevin, etc. have not worked).

No it is not easy but a good GM can do this.

Free agents: I do not think you can just say, 'OK we are pretty good right now and we need to add a player' then all of a sudden a particular player becomes a free agent. FAs are random. Just because we need 'X' does not mean 2-3 are ready for the taking - or that position is even strong in FA at that time. Besides other teams have interest AND Comerica is not a great sell for offensive type FAs (pay or not - the good ones can often choose).

That is why trades are so important. Identify and go after.

To me it does not seem this team is really interested any FA players to long term deals (maybe not even their own-yikes) - and I actually agree here probably 90% especially SPs. SHarris has a track record of short term deals. Incentive type deals. Ps that are the rebound (did this at SF as well).

Sometimes this may work ex Rodon & Cobb ('22), Lorenzen ('23) and so far Flaherty ('24) and sometimes not Junis & Boyd ('22), Boyd ('23) and so far Maeda ('24 & '25). Its a crap shot and 50% is not bad really. Here the front office needs to identify and then have ownership's backing. AA got this far, then FA failures and injuries prevailed. IMHO, AA did not have anywhere close to the right development people for most of his GM tenure, then what little he did later was too late (ex AJ and Garko). SHarris seems to understand the FA aspect part of this.

Drafting and development: This needs to take place and is number one with putting together a mid to small market team. I/we hope this has and is getting better...

My point is once again, acquiring good players needs to take place. Not all will be through drafting and development and certainly SHarris is not a big FA type GM (and maybe for good reason). Good players can be added through trades. Some of it is luck and the most under rated aspect is injuries. They are always there, hence depth, especially with pitching, is a must.

My Humble Conclusion: I would like to see SHarris (JGreenberg and this group) find some 'gold nuggets' with a couple of trades. My biggest point is there is no need to wait here. This can happen at any time. Find the players. If he cannot do this - then he/his group is only going to be 'holding up the bridge' for the next regime - who will want 'time' to rebuild and give us their rendition of 'the plan'. ; )  Go Tigs!

13 minutes ago, casimir said:

...A Canha injury would also likely eliminate any thoughts of demoting Torkelson, if there were any of those thoughts to begin with.  Urhsela played 1B last night, Vierling has some limited experience there, too.  I get Torkelson has disappointed so far this season, but I'm not sure a Vierling/Urshela time share at 1B is what they'll opt for, particularly since they are much better gloves elsewhere.

I think they have to make a decision on KHiura as well quite soon. Now, I/we know he is not tearing it up at AAA (though has had a couple decent spells). He may get a look see here as he has had some success in the past and they may not wish to lose him for nothing (at least not yet). If an IL for Canha they could also consider JHM or even Parker (as many here have already mentioned) - but maybe PM still needs more time at AAA.

1 hour ago, LongLiveMaroth said:

General consensus was either Dalton Rushing or Cartaya plus Eddys Leonard but we probably would have probably thrown in Jake Rogers as his name was thrown around and Donny Sands was in Pittsburgh ready to be "called up". 

This is where SHarris and the FO need to be pretty good and is where AA failed for much of his tenure (see JD, JV, etc - but did well with the DNorris for ROlsen deal).

Maybe they offer JFlaherty a higher AAV deal ex 2 or 3 yrs, this would also allow Jack to be a FA again at 31-32?

IF we deal Flaherty (or esp Skubal) it has to have an 'impact' type return. In a Skubal case it could set us back years once AGAIN if the return is 'bad'.

It is all a gamble, health 'always' plays a large part here and will again at the deadline - if said players are healthy.

My point all along has been does SHarris and this new regime have the ability to identify close to ready MLB talent and get a deal done. He does not have to wait for the deadline either. He/they can make a deal at anytime trading a couple prospects from our system (not in the top 5-6), to a team in which a player at AA-AAA may be blocked by a young MLB talented player (again see LAD, Baltimore, etc.).

If SHarris cannot do this, then it will not matter as any CEO/GM worth their weight has to do this at times or it will be all on the next regime as another 'rebuild' takes place.

The key is 'player development' - If we are not developing 'bats' it makes no sense (IMHO) to give out 5yr+ deals to multiple FAs and get hand tied to several players - as we all know how often long term FA deals end up.

IMHO, we can still compete this year if:

- We stay pretty healthy

- Tork figures some things out

- FO acquires a bat (or two) ex close to MLB ready talent and/or someone another team wishes to move on from ex an existing contract, a FA after this yr and they are not competing, etc. - Go Tigs!

4 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

the person most responsible for not having any viable alternatives to Javy at SS is Scott Harris.

I/we obviously see Javy is not living up to expectation. He is trying imho, yet, he is who he is. With said, he is second on the team in RBIs with 21 (at the moment) and if several more players had 21 RBIs we would have several more wins without question. If he is that bad - what does that say about the rest of this team.

Seems when Greene stopped hitting the Ls started to pile up. He has been bad at the plate (check out the last 16-17 games) and not so hot in the field either lately. Is something wrong with him or is it simply a slump (and a long one).

It is a long season, I have said it many times SHarris and the GM need to make a move/statement (or two). He has to have the ability to work a trade. Regardless of where we are as a team. Evaluating, etc. he has to have the ability to do this. It can be done at anytime or the next regime can blame 'him' instead of everyone blaming AA (and yes, AA inability to make a decent trade among other things put the franchise back). I just heard Chris Getz on the WSox broadcast and he said he has been fielding more calls recently about potential players. Again SHarris needs to make a decent move, now, a month from now, etc. If he does not have this ability -  well then the next rebuild will start in another 2-3 years.

This team could be 'decent' now. They were earlier. They simply have too many black holes in the lineup.

8 hours ago, chasfh said:

I don’t think it’s gone yet. We still have Baez, we still have Rogers, Tork is still an open question. But, also, center field is not close to being settled and right field is not that much closer. We’re still in the process of clearing out enough rot that we can fairly say Al Avila’s thumbprint is still visible on the team.

its true that we’ve made a lot of progress turning over the team but we’ve got at least another year, probably two, until we move past the point where his tenure has a clear and present influence on the team.

8 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Baez is really the only problematic piece left.  Other than that, it's up to Harris going forward and it shouldn't take a few years like Buddah suggested. Harris has a chance to get them in contention by next year.  If he doesn't make progress by then, it's on him, not Avila.  

I do understand that things take time. However, with that said I would like to see SHarris acquire a 'mainstay' player (bat) or two via a trade. I do not feel you have to trade Jobe or Clark, etc., or any top 6 or so prospects to get another player or two in here (as many here feel). Heck, SD acquired LArraez just last week for prospects NOT in there top 6-7 ratings. It happens fairly regularly and this is what also contributes to being a good GM. The ability to negotiate a deal and also to get a FA when the opportunity arises.

They could compete this year really or maybe not? Maybe in two or three years. That is not going to matter if Harris cannot make deals. Simply, he has to show he can do this or the rebuild will go on into the next regime. NOBODY builds a team just on drafting. However, I do think drafting quality players is the main course. Once again we have turned over the player development, scouting, analytics, etc. departments. All good.

A good GM has to be able to acquire outside players here and there. There have in house 'some possibilities' Vierling, Ibanez, etc. - yet, these two guys do not work the count (see BB totals, however J HMalloy does do that)). That philosophy in general has to be looked at and to keep in mind it may NOT work for every player. I get controlling the zone but I feel as do many, that having an ability to drive in runs is just as, if not more important than getting on base. Go Tigs.

18 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

...We've had nice start to 2024 but look how much of it is attributed to Mark Cahna and Urshela. We could have had one or two more vets as well and still played Meadows, Keith, Wencel, Tork and Verling etc plenty.  Spend a few million each year on one year stop gap players until we don't need to. Make winning today just as important as developing for tomorrow. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I agree and well put - They do NOT have to be mutually exclusive.

3 minutes ago, oblong said:

Regarding a "good trade"... who do you propose moving that would bring back good players?  Other GM's want to make good trades too so they won't give up quality for crap.  The Tigers don't have a lot of quality to move. 

Of course that is a good question. My point is many good GMS negotiate some good deals (ex DD). IF not, they no longer keep the position and rarely are rehired by another organization (ex AA - yet, he had 'some' other stronger areas, one was NOT surrounding himself with 'several' good baseball people).

Who? heck, who to deal away and get in return is very subjective. Different organizations value players differently. We do have some talent. Our system is NOT a bottom five anymore. Many pundits rank it mostly in the upper half. We make a list, identify whom we have interest, approach the team (and this also may already be working in reverse, it is very subjective and two sided). Then see what fits (objectively) on both ends with 'several' organizations. Many teams do this. Tampa does it with a lot of success. So does Atlanta, etc. Yet, on the other end the Orioles are very stingy. Most teams are in the middle.

IMHO, sooner or later, as I have said, today to 2-5 years from now, etc. Our FO will have to put together a trade or two that appears to work for both sides (again, someone may be doing this in reverse as well). Can our FO guys do this? That is what I question. This does not take years. A good GM/negotiator simply has  the ability to do this and it can be any time.

Again, scouting and player development is always first and foremost. Yet, some of this development 'could' be used to trade for needs.

12 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

The best deals for a team like the Tigers do not give up young for old, they are the ones where you have done your homework on up and comers around the high minors or green rookies that haven't proven anything, like Austin Jackson and Max Scherzer. But of course deals like that kill your roster value if the guys you bring don't pan out. So really - it's the same as it ever was - if you can evaluate talent - especially that others miss, you can build a winner. Or you grow your own, or you can spend $250M on payroll. That's really all there is available to management. 

I think there is a lot of magic thinking that the right GM  can just wheel and deal his team into contention. Well, he can try, but in most cases what looks like short term success is burning a system's future seed corn, the way Dombrowski burned ours.

IMHO, a good team, and to be sustainable, should be able to do three things:

1) It HAS to be able to draft (scouting mostly) then develop (player development) some good everyday MLB players. That means pitchers and position players. The Tigers should be getting better at this. They have updated everywhere and again, SHarris has inherited some potential players as well.

2) To be able to sign some FA players. This is on ownership as well. Yet, the ability to make a deal has to be with-in the CEO/GMs ability also.

3) Every successful CEO/GM has to have some ability to negotiate some good trades. You do not always have to give up your best young talent to get talent in return for a position of need. We have 'some' P depth. Other teams have needs as well. It is the scouting departments job to identify potential targets - but then the GM has to be able to 'negotiate the deal' - this and the FA depart both need this ability to some extent.

This is where I am questioning can this front office can do it.

They do not have to wait two years from now to better the team with a trade, because right now we are 'not in the race'. BS, a good GM can get a deal done at anytime. I just feel SHarris is over doing the 'versatile middle INF approach who works the count' - with most of his positional player aquisitions.

You have to have HR power to win games in this league. To drive the ball and drive in runs. We are lacking in that department (get it together Tork!). Sure the player needs to be able to play a position and do other things, but so far the players obtained by SHarris, to me, are more the 'fringe' types you find on a roster: JRizzo, BKennedy, NSolak, SMcKinstry, NMaton, AIbanez, YLee, etc. (also the 2nd & 3rd picks in last years draft), heck even GUrshela.

Again, my question is not the scouting dept., player development, facility and tech etc., all have upgrades. It is - is SHarris (and the GM) the guy(s) who can identify and negotiate a deal for potential 'good everyday players' via FA and trade - and we should not have to wait years to find this out. A good trade can be made at anytime.

IMHO, the Tigers could contend this year for the Central (doing so in September is a step forward) - If the P stays relatively healthy. So, why wait if opportunity presents itself? No, you do not have to always give up the 2-3 so called valued future franchise types either. Many good trades have been made through history to prove this. Many teams often look to unload players... Can our FO identify and negotiate this these type of deal(s)? If not, 2, 3 or 5 years time is NOT going to matter.

18 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

There's people calling for his head after just 1 1/2 years? One draft? Get back to me in 3 more years. We can't be firing our GM every two years. And I thought I was impatient...

On my thinking, by no means 'fire' the guy. However, I am very curious if he can/has the ability to make a deal or two here during the next say 18 months to acquire 1-2 quality hitter(s). A value for value deal and/or simply something that is more risky. If he cannot do that, than he is NOT the right person for the job. IMHO, its that simple.

On 5/7/2024 at 9:16 AM, gehringer_2 said:

and to be honest, I can't even agree with Ted here anymore. MLB pitching has reached a point where you don't always get a good pitch to hit in an AB anymore. You better be ready to hang in there against spin and good location or you're just going to give away too many ABs.

Pitchers have been able to throw pitches that 'spin' for years. You cannot say the pitches that BGibson or BFeller or NRyan, etc. threw did not 'spin'. Yes, today they have tweaked this a bit with grips and certain 'torquing' all measured through the motion of delivery by means of technologies used etc. to be able to quantify 'much' of it and then represent it.

Years past, they simply did not have the tech to verify 'what they were doing then' and are doing today. Many pitchers throughout history have done things (heck, even the spitball made odd movements at times, lol). Also, today the ball is lighter so this 'tweaking' of ball motion often can take place. The mound was also higher before 1969. This is one reason why SPs rarely throw more than 180 innings anymore (as Chasfh pointed out previously).

There is a lot to this and the times have changed. Yet, I would think good hitters have also made adjustments as well throughout history.

10 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Scott Harris was hired 2 years ago this September. Give the guy at least 5 years to build a team. It makes sense that they didn't sign an expensive hitter, we're more then one player away. We need more hitting, that should be obvious to everyone. 

Do not really agree (just my opinion). Yes, true to turn around the infrastructure ex facilities, player development, scouting, tech used, etc.

Not true for the MLB team. He has inherited 'some' talent. He has in place good pitching (though there will be some injuries, of course to ALL teams).

Too me SHarris needs to show that he can acquire a strong bat or two via trade or FA. This has nothing to do with how many years on the job. Regardless of 1 year or 5, he needs to show that 'he can make a deal, that he has the ability and/or the art of negotiating a solid deal for a hitter or two'...  Yes, scouting has to help and say 'here is a list' - but it does not take 5 years to do that. He could do that anytime between now and say 1-2 years - my Q is, like DD could or unlike AA could not - can SHarris do this?

The Tigers may or may not contend this year. IMHO, they could. However, if SHarris does not have the ability to make 'some' things happen, it will not matter if it this year (he can swing a trade at anytime) or in 5 years. Every GM (this includes JGreenberg) /CEO has to have the ability to negotiate some solid deals - or they will simply be short lived in that position (even if after 5 years ex AA, yet he did have strengths in other areas). If the man in charge can show that he can negotiate deals, ex like DD, they will get several career chances either with one or several organizations.

Quite simple really. We shall see.

All IMHO, I am just venting a bit here, as I have mentioned this before and will say again, SHarris, IMHO, does tend to go overboard with a certain type of player acquisition and it may be excluding a potential 'bigger' time tested understanding. He seems sold on contact types that work the count. Players that control the strike zone. This is fine to an extent but is this approach, used against MLB pitchers taken an idea too far in that it is putting our hitters in a hole too often - meaning getting behind on the count. When that happens we all know the odds favor the pitcher. I have heard CPena mention this on a broadcast, 'that the word is out on the Tigers'. I have heard Gibby talk about our low league ranking on missing middle-middle pitches. Even C-Mo has said the Tiger hitters are missing/taking too many hittable pitches.

Scott Harris, at least to me, seems too intent on finding 'INFs that can move around versatility wise, that work the count'. There is a pattern; NMaton, JCamargo, JRizzo, ZMcKinstry, YHLee, NSolak, RVilade, AIbanez (not so much a count worker here) GUrshela, etc. Even the draft for the 2nd and 3rd picks last year (after an obvious 1st choice of one of the two OFs) they went after KMcGonigle and MAnderson (both middle type INFs who work the count - but not alot of projected power). I have heard him say he wants AJ Hinch to have choices to create a 'dynamic lineup' every game. Is he not appreciating the 'guys' who can swing it and drive the ball that play most every day?

Paraphrasing the next two statements: Ted Williams often said "Every AB you get one good pitch to hit so don't take it, don't miss it and don't foul it away." I remember Jim Leyland when asked about all the baseball strategy changes and saber-metrics, etc. and about on base percentage - he said "I am  more concerned about having guys who can drive in runs."

With said, I do, along with many others like the organizational changes that have taken place with the Tigers. All the scientific stuff Ryan Garko and others have been implementing. Yet, in the end, the game is still the same. You have a defense behind a pitcher who throws the ball and you have a batter with bat in hand and the idea is to drive the ball and score runs. If you spend too much time and resources on trying to 'get on base' and ignore the driving the ball part - it may start showing up in games more than many might think.

So I ponder, does SHarris (and the GM) have the ability to really get/develop 'hitters'? Would he consider, when the time is right, to get a real quailty hitter? Does he have the ability to make negotiate (trade or FA wise) such a move? BTW, here is where I, and others felt, AAvila had challanges.

I will also say, perhaps there may be something to Comerica Park in that some hitters may be getting 'psyched out' by it. Some players that have spoken about it: JGonzalez, BHigginson, NCastellanos, EHaase, etc. and they are just a few who have been open to say it. How many have not publicly?

Keep developing the pitching. Play good fundamental ball and provide sound defense. Yet get/develop some hitters for 'this park' who can drive the ball. Go Tigers!   

3 minutes ago, UCFKNIGHT said:

Would it be possible to acquire a cather 19 games into the 2024 season? Jake Rogers and Carson Kelly are automatic outs these days. I liked the hiring of Scott Harris, but my patience with his decision making is being tested.

I do understand the patience part, it is Harris second year. What I do not understand is that there seems to be a trend. He tends to favor versatile middle INF types who can work a count. He got ZMcKinstry, AIbanez, NMaton, MVierling and NSolak. He recently picked up BKennedy. We can say that may be all that was available, yet for a FA he signed GUrshela. During his first draft, after an obvious first pick (of 2 or 3 players available in the very first round), he went after KMcGonigle and MAnderson. I have heard him say he wants AJ to be able to put together a 'dynamic' lineup on a daily basis that has the best chance to when given the opposing team and P.

All that is fine, to an extent. Does he understand that winning teams need some set 'everyday' potential star positional type players (I did not say superstasr)?

It all gets down to player development. We need to see progress from several of the lot of Tork, Greene, Kieth, Meadows, Carp, Jung, Malloy or another 'rebuild' will be upon us... Can we find some help from Dingler, Kriedler, Hiura, Baddoo, Bigbee, etc. I get it, then we add to that - yet, will we add again with just supplemental utility types?

One thing I do agree is that he does not give SPs long term deals. Unfortunately the game has changed here big time and injuries are constant.

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Won't be surprised if by June the rotation is be Skubal, Mize, Manning, Olson and that it will be one of either Maeda or Flaherty that ends up hurt or ineffective.

Odds are one of the first four mentioned could be on the IL. Yes, one of the other two 'may' be the same and/or ineffective... ALL clubs will be going through this. We should all know this by now. The Q is whether or not we have 'enough depth' to stand our ground - I believe we do, but only if a couple of the group of SGL, Madden, Montero, Jobe, etc. take the next step.

The concept and evolution of SP has changed. No longer are there 2-3 SPs pitching on a staff throwing 200 innings. Heck, even 180 is REALLY pushing it. There needs to be about 10+ pitches who can give 150 innings total, in the upper echelons (MLB, AAA and to a less degree AA), of an organization this day and age.

20 minutes ago, casimir said:

These games are being broadcast on Bally's this week.

Thanks mucho 🙂

9 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

In its simplest terms:

I think Avila did a great job at getting the ball rolling towards modernizing the Tigers organization, including hiring such key people as Ryan Garko, AJ Hinch, etc., starting up a data analytics program, etc. The Org was starting to draft better players with skills that translated to a higher level than his early GM years, as a result. Including several later round pitchers and a couple later round position players.

But he didn't come from an analytics background and was therefore mostly behind the 8-ball, with a general lack of understanding on how to apply the analytical data within the organization. This, and many other flaws, says that the bottom line with Avila was that he just wasn't good enough to get the Org all the way to where it needed to be.

On Harris: he was able to see an Org that had laid the groundwork, and just needed the right person to get the Org to the finish line. The Tigers chose him, and he chose the Tigers.

I think Harris is the right guy to get us over the finish line, and Avila was not that guy.

 

 

 

All well put.

I will add, IMHO, he (AA) was 'trained' a certain way for a long time - hence he was not earlier on with the changes the league had made (biomechanics, the sciences, player development, etc.).

He also had most all 'old school' types working for him and was loyal to a fault and this put the org behind the 8 ball big time. Yet, he did see the changes and tried, like you mentioned, to move forward (Garko, Hinch, etc.). With said the org. could not develop much in terms of offensive minded players and still relied on 'pure power' types and guys who "could run like gazelles" as he often put it - but development and baseball quotient identifying was not in the cards at all.

I do feel AA could ID some players for sure - but overall the people in the organization  were too far out of touch with the modern methods and again development was poor.

40 minutes ago, casimir said:

I didn't know Rivera was in the Tiger sights.  I do recall some sort of Higginson for Williams chatter, but I don't know if it was one for one or if other players were involved.

Yea, a lot of 'chatter'. I remember hearing chatter as well - something about Mike Drumwright (RHP) and Roberto Duran (LHP) for Williams, but the NYY Pres/or owner 'supposedly' nixed it.

8 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

That is a good one !

4 hours ago, CaliforniaDreaming said:

...with a power arm

Are you kidding me ?  You can't make that up. 🙂

Thank you for the feed backs! I will look at these things.

Yes, I think my desktop is more 'messy' than messed up, lol. Yet, in most other things I am quite 'orderly' for the most part - sometimes it even irks people. 🤨🙂

Another churn and burn. That was fast for Ingram. Maybe he makes it through waivers.:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/02/tigers-claim-t-j-hopkins-designate-kolton-ingram.html

Thanks for the suggestion. I will look into this. BTW, do I need a password to get into Safe Mode  to do this in Windows 10?

Opps, I posted this in the Spring Training thread... 😔

I do like the risk. As mentioned 'Maybe we can help him get better'.