Betrayer

2 hours ago, NYLion said:

It's not a matter of trading them just for the sake of trading them but more of a recognition that it's hard to find a fit for Ivey here and that Duren is fairly limited in what he can do in todays' game. Also knowing that their value might be at its peak right now if the team continues to lose with these mismatched pieces.

I think it's extremely unlikely that they trade Duren but Ivey is absolutely trade bait. They can't just run it back with these guys and just work around the edges of this roster. They need players that are not only more advanced in their development but also fit better. I don't ever see a core of Cade, Ivey, Ausar and Duren being even a regular playoff team in this league nevermind championship caliber.

I think you summed it up pretty well.

You've got to move at least one of them before you're forced to pay them (Drummond) or you've waited so long that their value plummets (Bey).

I honestly don't know what you get for them because it's tough to gauge with young players. The Nets probably aren't trading Mikal Bridges even though they need to tear it down and rebuild, but he's the dream. I'm giving up Ivey, this year's first (make the pick for the Nets), a 2029 first, and Fournier (20M expiring) to put Bridges next to Cade, Ausar, and Fontecchio next season.

But maybe none of it matters if you don't get a real coach in here. Can we trade him too please?

What a clown show. I’m not even sure what sport some of these guys are playing.  

Everyone will focus on that final play, and yea, Cade should've known the clock. But the real reasons they lost this game happened way earlier.

Your starting Center can't be 4-10 with 2 turnovers and poor defense. He's been averaging 3 turnovers a game lately and doing some serious Drummond stuff with the ball. 

Your starting Shooting Guard can't continue to play like the rebirth of Killian Hayes. He's been horrendous in every facet of the game, from shooting to defense, over the past 14 games. Cade's getting blitzed on every screen and they have nobody else that can takeover a game because Ivey has gone into a massive slump.

Not one of the starters could shoot the ball from outside and Miami plays a ton of zone which is designed to keep you out of the paint. There's zero movement off-ball in Monty's offense, so if you aren't hitting those low quality threes against the zone, then you're in trouble in this offense. It's been a problem all year and I don't expect Monty to figure out how to play against a zone anytime soon.

Edit to add: More and more I think you've got to make a decision and move either Ivey or Duren this offseason while you can get good value for them. You can't afford to extend all of these players starting with Cade this offseason and then those two next offseason and Ausar the year after that. Not when your team is this bad. Doubling down on a 12 win team is a bad idea.

Yep, I remember Reggie having it as well. Apparently so does James Harden, Javale McGee, and Richard Jefferson. Probably a bunch more too.

14 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Duren is taking advantage of how small Toronto is and looks like an all star.  But not sure how he has 4 turnovers already. 

The defense is the bigger concern. Monster game from him on the offensive end against a team full of midgets. He feasted, as he should have. Kudos for that, but his defense and paint protection is still a real problem. It's bad when Wiseman comes in and looks like the better rim protector and shot deterrent.

I hear a lot of people on socials making a big deal about Ausar's Asthma, but didn't Dennis Rodman have it as well? If I recall correctly he turned out to be a pretty good player who averaged 30+ minutes per game for 10+ seasons in the NBA. It'll be all right. Lots of guys in the league have Asthma.

Bad timing for his contract. I feel sorry for him.

Guys improve a lot from age 20-25, so I have no idea what Duren will become. That really depends upon his drive and work ethic. However, I feel like a lot of defense is instinctual, so I'm not sure if he'll ever be the defensive force we want him to be. That means he needs to provide something else in the modern NBA besides rebounding and dunks.

The good news is his free throws and shooting form are looking really good and have taken a huge leap this year. Maybe he can add the three ball in a year or two.

The only person who doesn't see this is Monty. Let's keep rolling out that starting lineup with Ausar/Stew/Duren who are a -10.

Not only does taking Stew out of the starting lineup help Cade and Ivey who are struggling with a packed paint every night, it also means less Wiseman minutes which is good for everyone.

I've heard some people saying they'd take Sarr and then try to move Duren since Duren is not a great defender for a guy who plays a fairly traditional center role (not a stretch big). I don't know enough about Sarr to comment on that idea either way.

My guess is Weaver would draft Sarr and try to play them together like the Cavs do with Mobley and Allen. They clearly don't care about spacing for Cade and Ivey at all since they're starting a Thompson/Stew/Duren lineup anyway when everyone knows Fontecchio should be in there.

Best part of the Orlando game was listening to Greg and George talk with astonishment about how the Magic look for a mismatch on offense and go right to it. I guess watching the Pistons all season will put you in awe of basic basketball.

2 games ago the reporters asked Monty about staggering Cade and Ivey, to which he responded that it's hard because then you have "2 small guards on the bench unit" (he forgot about Grimes, I guess) and that maybe he could do it with Stew instead. The very next game, he actually tried it in the first half and staggered both Ivey and Stew!

Let's see if he tries it again. It would be amazing if all we actually needed was someone to ask the question directly so Monty could go to YouTube and learn how NBA teams stagger lineups and then give it a try. At this point I wouldn't put anything past the guy who started Killian for half the season.

By the way, our bench is 30th in net rating and is played 10th most in the NBA. Just another one from the category of, "Duh", to add to Monty's phenomenal resume.

Who needs Sasser when you have Flynn running point in the second unit alongside Wiseman and Fournier?   (that was sarcasm)

Nice game from Stew and Ausar. I especially liked the part in the second half where Monty actually staggered the lineup and played Stew at backup Center a bunch. He even staggered Ivey a bit! Not coincidentally the team played better in the second half with less minutes from the 5-man bench unit.

So, 59 games to figure out how to stagger a lineup? Or was that second half an anomaly? I guess we'll find out tomorrow against Orlando.

10 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Wizards lost tonight.

We're 29th! We're 29th! We're 29th!

6th pick here we come!

6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Counter arg is that as part of their development, Cade and Ivy should both learn how to optimize their own and each other's game both together and apart since if they both stay each should be on the floor when the other isn't but also mostly together - QED.

Yep. That's why I don't buy the "core" argument, especially from a coach that had to be told to play Ivey instead of Killian. As you said, their future roles involve them starting and finishing together, but also being staggered. Plus, Monty has done this full line change stuff since the start of the season, so it just seems to be his thing.

4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I haven't been a big enough basketball fan over the years to have a sense over this, but I'm pretty sure all the years I followed basketball more closely when I was younger, substitutions were mostly always individual, coaches would give one or two players a blow, or sub for match-ups in for length or shooting  - e.g the way Vinnie J was used. So I can't say that I have any memory of the concept of complete 1st and 2nd teams having traditionally been a thing in basketball. It makes me curious what drives the concept. Is there some evidence more successful team have gone to it? Or maybe just with so many guys that come into the league without long college careers players don't have the game experience to have learned how to adjust to playing with more than one set of teammates?

Actually, quite the opposite. Most successful teams stagger the substitutions so one of their top 3 players are in the game at all times. I have no idea what drives this mindset from Monty (or from Casey, who used to do it as well). I can only imagine it's because it's easier to manage. I guess you can't pay a guy 78M and expect him to be able to figure out something that every coach from high school on is smart enough to handle.

Good to see a win despite Monty's attempts to bungle it. Starters were +24 and the bench was -14.

This coach can't figure out how to stagger his two best creators so we have to watch the Malachi Flynn creation show with 4 other bench guys. It's just a mind boggling level of ineptitude from this coaching staff.

And now Muscala's has been waived, making that trade even worse, but also clearing the way for Wiseman to play heavy minutes for the remainder of the year.

I get the general negativity around this team, but are we seriously sitting here trying to say that diving into a guy's legs is ok in the NBA? C'mon, even the NBA has apologized and the referee said it was a missed call. This should have been a Piston's win over a good team. They were robbed and the story is all over ESPN as well with quotes from Windhorst saying, "the NBA and the referees screwed up."

But getting past that, we've definitely seen more competitive games from this team recently and that's been fun to watch.  The starting 5 has been +2 on the court. They've also got some decent role players now in Fontecchio and Grimes, so it's going to be interesting to see what this core looks like over the remainder of the season and if they can start to gel despite what Monty has done (and continues to do) to set them back all season.

Monty has to go. I'm so glad there are national media people like Sam talking about it. This is a masterclass in coaching terrorism. I was just shaking my head watching this game the whole time.

15 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Somebody here already mentioned changing foul rules so that you can't be awarded a foul on offensive player initiated contact. Might be a tricky rule to write but would like to see that tried.

This is the one I keep talking about. Give the defender an equal right to his space on the court if he was there first. No more running into a defender and getting a call and no more swinging your arm through a defender to get a call. 

That, and they really need to stop the moving screens.

Those two changes alone would drastically alter the ability to defend and bring some balance back to the game.

SGA really stands out in the cut vs drive graphic.

Really wish the Pistons could've landed Atkinson. I'd love to see more off-ball movement, cutting, and screening like GS does. Nobody wants to chase Ivey or Ausar around the court and few can vertical space like Duren and Ausar. All of the core 4 are good passers as well. Add Fontecchio to that mix who can movement shoot. They'd feast. The whole idea behind drafting 4 dudes who supposedly have high IQ and can make passing plays is not to run one dude into triple teams all day while the other guys sit in the corner.

Ku Kahil dropped a show today talking about the misuse of Ausar in this offense. Basically discussing the (false) idea that you always need 4 shooters on the court.

He mostly referenced a lot of JJ Redick's info, so I'll post one of JJ's pods below where he talks about this concept in reference to how Willie Green is using Zion and even how Ben Simmons was used when JJ played with him. On a previous pod he talked about this concept using some of the actions that Quin Snyder runs in Atlanta. And, of course, you've all heard me talk about how the Warriors use Draymond and Looney together with the other three guys running off-ball screens to free up shooters and otherwise bend the defense.

Nobody is saying that this core has the talent level of some of those other teams, but every time you see Ausar standing in the corner and the Pistons playing 4 on 5 offense, that's on Monty. The only thing worse than his lineups are his offensive sets and lack of creativity.

1 hour ago, Deleterious said:

 

Pistons will probably hire Vaughn to sit on the bench next to Silas. This organization likes to collect other people's junk.

Here's my rough framework to fix All-Star weekend:

1. Move the In-Season tournament to mid January. It shouldn't have been so early in the season anyway.
2. Move All-Star weekend to late January, right at the actual mid-season mark.
3. Add a 3-on-3 tournament (or something similar) for the All-Stars on Saturday afternoon with ascending prize money.
4. Retain the Saturday evening events with greater (monetary) encouragement for stars to participate.
5. Cap off the weekend with the In-Season Tourney Championship Game instead of the All-Star game on Sunday.

Basically moving a more competitive game to the marque spot and creating a bunch of fun All-Star stuff around it to build up hype and make the whole thing a big production. It'll add more gravity and attention to the in-season tournament,  which will now be a mid-season tournament.

I also think you'll get more competition out of a 3-on-3 tournament with the All-Stars because there's isn't a 15 man team with substitutions and so many other guys on the court. There's more pride when it's just you and 2 others trying to win a tournament. The ascending prize money could help as well.

As a side benefit, this will also put All-Star weekend before the trade deadline again, where it belongs so GMs can meet in person to discuss deals ahead of the deadline.

Also, I just want to say that I used to enjoy All-Star weekend. Now I just sit there looking at Booker, Mitchell, and Haliburton while shaking my head in disgust as I think about Johnson, Kennard, and Hayes.

Did anyone else notice that in the skills competition they had a "First Picks" team. They took the guys who were drafted first overall from 2020, 2022, and 2023. Skipped right over 2021.

15 hours ago, Deleterious said:

I hate the LED court.

Can't imagine the players like it. It has to be distracting with all that light reflecting up into your face.

22 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Everyone predicting a big game from Ivey on Thursday when they play Indiana. 

 

Watch Monty play Ivey for 12 minutes and Fournier for 32.