4hzglory

13 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I figured they would reminisce about the Super Bowl they actually won where Wentz would have been the MVP if he didn't get injured. 

Why don't they draft a QB now instead of spending 20% of their cap on Hurts? 

In hindsight they made the right decision drafting Hurts when they had Wentz.  They don’t go to the Super Bowl this year if they didn’t.

Just now, Toddwert said:

Im not writing them off i want them to get better .... you guys are the ones who say  its already a lost season 

No season is a lost season before it starts.  2021 was considered lost by May 1 and look what happened.  It takes a whole lot of ifs, but if Meadows and Baez revert to near career norms and Tork hits like he did through 3 levels of the minors, Greene improves, 1 of Baddoo or Carpenter progresses and Schoop, Kreidler, Lipscious, or Malloy is league average offensively, suddenly the offense doesn't look so bad.

You can go through the pitching staff the same way.  Is it likely?  No, but the offseason isn't close to over and there is a path, albeit a very, very, extremely miniscule path, if no further moves were made.  Best of all, we still play in one of the worst divisions in baseball.

6 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

Im not saying hes not a huge improvement ...... but you can also throw a bone to some of us who watch the team day after day,  right now I see a team on paper worse then last year and yeah i know its only december blah blah 

They did throw a few - Boyd, Lorenzen, and Malloy, plus like Edman said, all of the behind the scenes coaching staff, development, scouting, and training.  But I know, those aren't enough because they didn't offer arbitration to Candelario, the Castros, and Reyes.

4 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

Ive stopped going to games for the last 5 years .... pretty much watch the games because i love sports and there isnt anything on during the summer

If you are not going to game, just watching on TV and are so upset you aren't willing to give the new FO even the who offseason before writing them off for not picking up free agents they weren't after anyway, why don't you root for the Mets or another team that is doing what you want?

I totally get the frustration of the past seasons, but we never realistically were going to sign the vast majority of the players who are off the market, nor should we have.  There are many ways to build the team and we are roughly 1 month into the offseason.  I doubt many of the players Harris has targeted are now unavailable.   And saying Illitch doesn't care is absurd also IMO as last offseason he was more than willing to spend when it looked like a SS, a starter, and a LF could take the team from 77 wins to playoff contention.

7 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

so why watch a team you have no hope in this season?

Why do you?

3 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

no one says to fly off the handle  maybe voice some concern 

Because it really makes a difference if any of us voice any some concern we have?  

19 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

 

Who replaces Castro.    Andy Ibanez?   Wow.  exciting.     Oh, the recongizing the strike zone thing.... Harold Castro had a better OBP than Ibanez.     

 

Just in regards to this, there is still a chance Harold Castro ends up replacing Harold Castro.  I hope not, but he isn't signed yet.  Same with Willie.

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

I agree with that assessment. I feel, though, after you committed the amount of money you did to Goff and basically signal he is your franchise QB, you should adapt your system to him. That doesn't seem like great coaching to me. 

Personally I don't think he is a great coach.  I think they drafted great late, and had a great team, but I think there are a number of coaches that could have had similar success. 

4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Ben Johnson built his system around Goff instead of forcing Goff into his system. One would think an offensive genius like McVay would do that. 

That's why I don't think McVay is an offensive genius.  I think he originally did that more, but then expected Goff to continue to grow in ways Goff wasn't capable.  McVay seems stubborn to me where Campbell, Johnson, and Glenn build their systems around their players skills. 

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Guess we just going to keep regurgitating Goff benefited greatly from McVay and ignore what he's doing now. 

I think McVay treated Goff unfairly and expected more of him than Goff could do.  I don't think he is a quarterback whisperer.  I think he wants to run what he wants to run and doesn't care if it fits the player.  I do think Stafford was a significant upgrade for what McVay wanted to run.  And I think Goff would have been much worse in Detroit than Stafford was under Patricia.  

I think Goff is a solid QB that teams can win with.  There is an article out on the Athletic about revisiting QB tiers and for this year they would move Goff from Tier 3 (preseason where they ranked him 22) to mid Tier 2, but most surveyed still believed he was upper Tier 3 (in the 15-20 range) going forward.  You can win with that.  

How Goff finishes out this season will definitely be a factor.  If he finishes strong which I hope and believe he will, not much changes from now.  If his weapons/line are mostly healthy and he falters the last 4 weeks,  that definitely has to be something to consider.

21 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

You can say this about any position on the field. You can say it about RT. It's really about whether a QB is a significant improvement over Goff. I don't think there is a significant improvement in this draft. There are significant improvements on the defensive side of the ball. 

Yes, but it is much easier and cheaper to get a right tackle than it is to get a top flight QB.

16 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

for a group of avid football fans (you're posting in a Lions message board, for chrissakes), you don't have a lot of confidence in your ability to assess talent. If you did, you would see that Bryce Young is the only guy you would draft from this class with the Rams pick.  And he probably won't be there.  None of the others are worthy at that pick.  Perhaps with the Lions own pick, if Levis or Richardson drop.  

In this draft, it's Bryce or bust.  Otherwise, take the best defense players available, live with Goff for another year, or find a different way to get an established, proven QB. 

I think you are overestimating your ability to assess talent.  We don't know for sure.  What if, for example, Stroud blows up and dominates against Georgia and Michigan in the playoff?  What if someone like Levis or Richardson is the one Holmes likes and available with the Lions pick?  Or what if Holmes goes defense with the Rams pick, but thinks it is worth trading up to get Stroud/Levis/Richardson with one or more of his extra picks?  Or if he sees a later round pick that really stands out to him?  It doesn't have to be with the Rams pick for this to happen.  I trust Holmes to evaluate much more than myself or anyone else on this board as he has earned it in his time here and with the Rams.  If Holmes doesn't see any of them worthy and commits to Goff, I trust him also.

7 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I've never said the Lions should or shouldn't draft a QB. I'm saying there are reasons to believe Goff can be the future QB. You can say the same thing with about 90% of the QBs in the league. I also wouldn't draft a QB because of the rookie contract. if they are good they need to get paid eventually. 

And we (or at least I) am not saying Goff can't be the future QB.  I am just saying if Holmes sees a guy that he believes gives the best chance to win in 2024, he should draft him.

And yes, the rookie deal is a significant factor as while you will eventually have to pay them, for 4-5 years (3-4 if they sit in 2023) you have them at a much lower salary and can use that money to fill out the team.  That $20-40 million/yr difference can easily be the difference between a super bowl contender and a playoff contender for each of those 3-4 years. 

If Goff continues to perform and is the QB of the future, he will likely be getting $30-40 million/year in 2024.  He may be worth it.  But if Holmes believes one of the current crop of QB's can be as good or better with the solid OL and weapons, I definitely would trust him to take them.

Just now, NYLion said:

Goff succeeding now sort of dispels that theory, the narrative that McVay is the reason for Goff's success. It's bunk.

Not necessarily.  McVay may have put a younger Goff in position to succeed, but then pushed him/demanded more from him than he was able to develop into and so Goff didn't perform as well.

We are definitely seeing what coaching that discovers and builds around what players can do does for a team as well as those individual players success.  The more talent they have at all positions, the more ways they can win.  Certain positions are harder to find improvements on than others, whether it be in the draft or the cost in free agency.  Holmes has done a great job in evaluating players in the draft and I fully trust him to make that decision.

And while I 100% agree that Holmes wanted Goff in the Stafford trade, in no way do I think he wouldn't pick a QB if he thought that QB gave the team the best chance to win in 2024.  If he doesn't, he will wait until he finds that player.

5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's weird because it gets dismissed when it's brought up that Goff went to a Super Bowl as well. No one addresses Stafford's decline this year. Even though he wasn't performing well when Kupp and Robinson were healthy and I cannot imagine the Rams were any worse than the Lions teams he played on.

Stafford was dealing with an injury all preseason and supposedly during the season.   

But again, it isn't whether Goff has been good.  He has been.   It is if Holmes thinks there is a QB that is likely to give the team a better chance to win for 2024 on a rookie contract or not.  If he does, he better take him.  If he doesn't, he better not waste a pick on one.

37 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

What if Brad Holmes doesn't like the crop of QBs available?

Really, that's what a lot of this conversation comes down to. If the GM thinks there's a can't miss generational talent available, then I doubt anyone would object to him pulling the trigger. But if that person isn't available, Goff has played well enough that I doubt he will draft a QB for the sake of drafting a QB.

I think everyone who has brought up the possibility of drafting a QB agrees with this.  

36 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Weird, so the Rams have everyone hurt is a valid excuse for Stafford and not Goff? Let's not pass over the next Mahomes because Mahomes just come along every draft. I guarantee Kansas City didn't even know they were drafting the next Mahomes. Guess we're just going to be delusional thinking there will be another Mahomes. Might as well just wait until the 6th round and draft another Tom Brady. 

I don't think anyone is saying Goff is the problem.  I think most are saying if Holmes thinks there is a QB in the draft that can be better than Goff in 2024 and on a rookie contract so he can spend the $ elsewhere, he should do it.  If he doesn't, he shouldn't and Goff is just fine.  Goff has played great and took away the absolute need to draft a QB.  But if Holmes believes one of the guys available is the right one, he should definitely take him.

4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I don't think the QB you take has to be better than Goff, rather just as good as Goff. You certainly hope they are better though if you are taking one. My reasoning though for being as good as Goff is the benefit of the rookie contract that comes with a Young/Stroud/whoever. If you can move on from Goff in a year and have 2-4 seasons of a QB on a rookie contract, playing at least as good as Goff is now, I think there is some merit to that. Let's say you drafted CJ Stroud and in 2 years time he proves to be as good as Goff or only slightly better, but you get Goff's $31 million cap hit off the books, minus the $5 million in dead cap if he's cut or traded, I think there is benefit to being able to have that money available to you for 2-3 seasons and load up the roster during the off-season. The rookie contract is the game changer we never were able to have under the Matt Stafford tenure.

This is my thought but I completely trust Holmes.  
 

I have no doubt as things stand now that Goff is the QB for 2023.  I also have think Goff has taken any trade for a QB like Lamar off the table.  

The question is a draft pick for the reasons you say and that is where I trust Holmes decision.

3 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Holmes was on the staff that traded up for Goff in the draft, and he traded for him again with the Lions. He believes in Goff. With Goff’s performance this season there is no reason for Holmes to reach for a QB. 

Also with the team’s overall play Holmes has the luxury of talking the best player available in each of the five picks he has in the first three rounds. They will seriously upgrade the defense and get depth at guard and RB. 

At this point the key question for next season is not about the QB. it is about the OC. Will he stay or will he go?

I don't think anyone is saying Holmes should reach for a QB.  Only that if he believes in one who is available, now is the perfect time to take him with the extra high pick and the ability to have that player sit behind Goff for a year.  If Holmes doesn't believe in anyone, then he definitely shouldn't reach for one.  Either way, I firmly believe Goff will be the starter in 2023.  The question for me is will his backup be his future cheaper successor, or will that person be picked up down the road longer.

22 minutes ago, buddha said:

you either trust brad holmes or you dont.  if they think levis or stroud (i assume young goes to the texans at 1 but you never know) could develop into an nfl game changing qb then you draft him.  if you dont, then you probably dont.

at some point they probably need to take a qb.  doesnt have to be this year, but i assumed that was their plan all along.

but plans change, perhaps their plans have changed?  we'll see.

I'm here 100%.  I trust Holmes to make the decision.  If Stroud or Levis is the guy, they have the ability to sit for a year and step in in 2024 and free up a bunch of cap space.  (It also would give us a higher upside backup in 2023 in case Goff went down.)  If Holmes doesn't believe in them, then load up the defense.  Either way, Holmes has earned my trust so far.

Joe is gone.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/12/braves-acquire-joe-jimenez-from-tigers.html

On 11/25/2022 at 3:34 PM, 4hzglory said:

Ohio Sate 42

Michigan 17

Maybe not 🤣

3 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Michigan 38

Ohio State 30

 

You heard it here first.

Ohio Sate 42

Michigan 17

1 hour ago, Edman85 said:

Apropos of nothing, I compiled the list of Tigers non-tenders dating back to 1990. Data pre-1995 is spotty.

Year	Player
2022	Jeimer Candelario
2022	Harold Castro
2022	Willi Castro
2022	Brendon Davis
2022	Miguel Diaz
2022	Kyle Funkhouser
2022	Michael Papierski
2021	Matthew Boyd
2021	Grayson Greiner
2018	Alex Wilson
2018	James McCann
2017	Bruce Rondon
2015	Neftali Feliz
2015	Al Alburquerque
2012	Daniel Schlereth
2011	Will Rhymes
2010	Zach Miner
2008	Aquilino Lopez
2007	Chad Durbin
2006	Alexis Gomez
2004	Eric Munson
2003	Ben Petrick
2003	Andy Van Hekken
2002	Robert Fick
2002	Julio Santana
2001	Deivi Cruz
1997	Bob Hamelin
1997	Fernando Hernandez
1994	Junior Felix
1994	Gene Harris
1994	Mike Gardiner
1994	Chad Kreuter
1993	Bob MacDonald
1993	Gary Thurman
1992	Mark Carreon
1991	Andy Allanson
1991	Johnny Paredes
1990	Lance McCullers

So in the last 33 years we’ve non-tendered 38 players.  7 (18 pct) of them were this year

14 hours ago, casimir said:

OSU certainly didn't look good early.  They've had RB health issues this season.  It seems like one of Henderson/Williams has been relegated to minimal touches and/or knocked out of a game and Hayden didn't get any playing time yesterday.  PSU did a good job of forcing OSU into obvious passing plays in the first half, and at one point OSU was 1 of 7 on 3rd down conversions.

And Day for some reason kept running WR screens that went nowhere when the chunk passes were there all game.  Day’s first half play calling left a lot to be desired IMO.