RedRamage

Okay, let me simplify the question. Above I posted the starting offensive roster of the Lions in 2014 and 2023 sans QB along with the HC and OC. Taking the QB out of the question, which of those rosters/coaching combos would you pick? In this situation you can't pick pieces and parts... just all of the 2014 people listed above or all of the 2023 people listed above. To make explicitly clear: If you pick 2023 that does NOT mean Goff isn't good and only got far because of the supporting cast. If you pick 2014 it does NOT mean that Stafford is a bum who got carried. This is not a commentary on the QB right now. I'm just asking... in a QB vacuum (ie, not QB around) which of those two groups would you pick?

Sorry, but even in 2014 with Calvin and Golden I'm still taking the 2023 offense over that. Still is we say 2014 was the best teams that Stafford played on as a Lion, it also is the team that did the best with Stafford. 11 and 5, 2nd in the North, just one game behind the Packers. And had a legit shot of winning the playoff game against the Cowboys until the refs picked up the flag. Which kinda sort answers my question: Could Stafford have done better when a better team around him? Well, one of the best the Lions managed to put together with him at the helm nearly won a playoff game... so probably yeah. Does this means Stafford > Goff? Of course not. That's not the question I'm trying to answer here. It's an interesting "what if" question, but that's all it is. Goff's our QB and I'm very happy with that. He's got more playoff wins than any Lions QB has in more than half a century so what's not to like love about that? If the Rams offered to trade Stafford for Goff straight up right now, I wouldn't do it. So I'm not arguing that Stafford is the better QB or Goff is just a system QB or that Goff's merely benefiting from a good team around him.

WOW.

The question really boils down to this: Do you think that the talent that Goff has around him right now (from coaching to front office to on the teammates) isn't better than the talent that Stafford every had around him for any one season? I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a season where this is true. Stafford has, at times, had great defenses. He has, at times, had good, great, and even HOF caliber team mates on offense, but has he ever had a season where much of this was true at the same time? And even if can find a season where the talent level is great, can we really consider any of the coaching staffs to be great, or even good? I'd say no. Does this mean Stafford > Goff? Absolutely not. It means that I wish I could see what Stafford would do if we could magically go back in time to July 2023 and swap Stafford for Goff 1-for-1 so that I could see what Stafford would do. We know what Goff did, and it was pretty damn special. Would Stafford have done the same thing (or better)? Then that'll answer the question of if it was Stafford or just a bad team around him. Would Stafford have done worse? Then that'll answer the question of it it was Stafford or just a bad team around him. This isn't supposed to be a Stafford vs. Goff debate. This is suppose to be a fantasy question to ultimately answer the nagging question: Was it Stafford or the Lions that make the 2010s just one more decades of despair for Lions' fans.

Oh... please, please do not bring up BMW.

You're being disingenuous when you say that. Decker overlaps Stafford for 5 seasons (16-20) Glasgow overlaps Stafford for 4 seasons (16-19) Ragnow overlaps Stafford for 3 seasons (18-20) Jonah Jackson overlaps Stafford for 1 season (20) Let's give a point for each OL player from 2023 who played in each season with Stafford: 09: 0 - 10: 0 - 11: 0 - 12: 0 - 13: 0 - 14: 0 - 15: 0 - 16: 2 - 17: 2 - 18: 3 - 19: 3 - 20: 3 Out of a possible 60 points, we get 13. Saying "4th/5ths" is technically true because 4 of the 5 starters from 2023 did play at least one season with Stafford on the Lions. But it implies that Stafford had largely the same OL that Goff did through his career in Detroit, which is not even close to true.

I don't think anyone has ever made the claim that Stafford had nothing but trash as teammates. That said, on the whole, Goff has better talent surrounding him. The OL was never as good for Stafford as it is for Goff and that plays a MAJOR role in how good an offense can be.

AV only goes back to 1960, unfortunately, which means Layne does show up on the list because by 1960 he was in Pittsburgh.

On a side note to my side note to this discussion (dang it... I'm double derailing my own thread!) I would have LOVED to see what Stafford would have done on the current Lions team. This would be purely to answer the question of whether Stafford really was a great NFL QB, or just a great Lions QB. Of course this is completely impossible because the current Lions team is built, in a significant part, on the trade happening. Without that we don't have some of the key pieces so there's no way to just swap Stafford and Goff and think: "what if the trade doesn't happen..." The Lions success right now is tied to that trade in a meaningful way.

Passing yards aren't really a good comparison between generations. Certainly Goff and Stafford are contemporaries so comparing their passing yards and TDs is fine and 100% valid. It's when you start comparing 2020s NFL stats with 1950s NFL stats where it gets more dicey. You missed a number in your reply to me so I don't know if you were saying Goff would move ahead of Stafford, I can't really disagree. I don't think he moves ahead of Layne. Even a SB win in 2024 won't put him over Layne in my humble opinion. I think a SB win does put him above Clark. Right now I think I have 'em: 1. Layne 2. Clark 3.4 Stafford 3.6 Goff Give me two more good seasons of Goff and another playoff win and I'd put him ahead of Stafford as greatest Lion QB ranking. (You could probably make the case that Goff > Stafford right now career wise. But as Lions QB, Goff doesn't have the longevity yet.)

Total side discussion... but what would it take to to declare Goff the greatest QB of the Lions of all time? Right now I'd place him anywhere between 2 and 4 depending on the day and how persuasive the various supporters are. Layne still has to be #1 given what he did with the Lions. After that I think you can make the case for Clark, Stafford, or Goff. Clark would be a clear #2 if he played a little longer and/or had one more championship. I still think he's the front runner for the #2 spot. Stafford has more years with the Lions, Goff has more post season success. How much is Stafford's lack of success with the Lions due to the front office and coaching staff generally being bad? How much of Goff's success is because the front office and coaching staff is good? Hard to say. (Disclaimer here: I am NOT saying Goff is only good because of the team built around him, but there's NO QUESTION that the current FO and CS is better than we've see in the past and this will give ANY QB a boost.)

If you're talking strictly position players and looking at their total career, you might actually be right.

Thread over. This is the winner right here.

Anyone who played for the Tigers is included, though it's would be measured on their time as a Tiger.

A little project I'm working on that I need opinions on the top three RedWings of all time. Try not to let recency bias effect your decision as much as possible. I'm figuring Gordie Howe has to be in the top three if not #1 over all. Stevie-Y in there as well?

A little project I'm working on that I need opinions on the top three Pistons of all time. Try not to let recency bias effect your decision as much as possible. I really know very little about the Pistons so any help would be appreciated.

A little project I'm working on that I need opinions on the top three Tigers of all time. Try not to let recency bias effect your decision as much as possible. I'm thinking #1 and #2 are Ty Cobb and Al Kaline, but I'm open to being persuaded if you think otherwise.

A little project I'm working on that I need opinions on the top three Lions of all time. Try not to let recency bias effect your decision as much as possible. I think Barry Sanders has to be in there for sure. Calvin Johnson? Bobby Layne? I'm tempted to put in Dutch Clark just because he's my favorite old-timey Lion, but he wasn't with the Lions for a long, long time. He did get them their first Championship though... I dunno.

Bates with a 48 yarder... looked like it was taller than the uprights when it crossed.

In case anyone was wondering where Jason Benetti was today instead of calling the Tigers game... he's actually calling the Panthers game today in Texas!

I'm really no fan of it either. I have ZERO problem with them putting in on after he died to remember him... love him or hate him (or just dislike his ownership style) he was still a owner for a major period of time and it's fine to recognize that a memorialize him for a year... but after that? No reason to keep in going for years and years and years. He didn't found the Lions. He didn't revolutionize anything in the game or the league. At best you can say he may have keep the league somewhat afloat with Ford advertisements before the NFL became the powerhouse it is now.

I heard they're adding WCF to helmet.

HATE the black lion helmet. Put the retro helmet in place of the black lion and I think I'd go for it.

I add this to my very, very long list of reasons while I'll never want to run for office.

Tin foil hate time: They leaked fakes in order to keep people from trying to find other leaks and/or discredit other potential leaks.