1984Echoes

3 hours ago, Toddwert said:

I dont know about tearing down but maybe we should trade some pitching for a little hitting

I have a different recipe:

Do lots more "Sifting".

We need to "Sift" through a bunch of the other kids available at Toledo to see who can stick...

And who can't.

And if a guy can't stick... trade him for something different.

(I will now reference my above post with the following trades: Jason Thompson traded for Al Cowens, Steve Kemp traded for Chet Lemon, John Wockenfuss and Glenn Wilson traded for Dave Bergman and Willie Hernandez).

The Marlins just traded Luis Arraez (2B, small, high-BA, high OBP, Slash in 6 MLB years: .325, .378, .424 = .803 career OPS) for 4 prospects...

If they had offered him to the Tigers for Torkelson straight-up... would anyone here have said "Yes."?

Just asking...

Food for thought.

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

Another "evaluation" season in 2025? This is getting old...

Just a reminder:

After we "graduated" a ****load of kids from the minors to MLB named: Jason Thompson, Mark Fidrych, Steve Kemp, Phil Mankowski, Bruce Kimm, Bruce Taylor, Lance Parrish, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Dave Rozema, Tim Corcoran, Steve Baker, Jack Morris, Dan Petry, Mark Wagner, Kip Young, Dave Stegman, Bob Sykes, Dave Tobik, Sheldon Burnside, Lynn Jones, Tom Brookens, Al Greene, Kirk Gibson, Ricky Peters, Dan Gonzalez, Bruce Robbins, Pat Underwood and  Mike Chris from 1976-79...

We STILL didn't win a World Series until 1984.

Sifting through a bunch of kids to see who sticks (for various reasons, Fidrych, Thompson, Kemp, Kimm, Wagner, Young, Sykes, Tobik, Baker, Corcoran, Stegman, Taylor, Jones, Peters, Gonzalez, Robbins, Underwood, Chris, Greene and Mankowski didn't make it to the Championship season)...

and who doesn't stick....

is both necessary and... painful.

And requires a ****load of patience.

(that is a list of ALL the guys we "graduated" from the minors from 1976 to 1979. A whole **** ton of 'em... and most of 'em flopped out or were traded for something different, or disappeared within a few years... Just sayin'...).

PS: Actually... Lockhart looks like a reliever too... At least based on history...

It at least says we have current MLB'ers and some depth at AAA and AA that could fill those roles...

The quality of that depth is an unknown though...

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

I mean, it makes some sense on paper. I'm just wondering whether there are enough quality pitchers who can fulfill the swing man/110-inning role to make it actually work...

Interestingly, the Tigers have a crapload of these guys in the system.

Basically, "failed starters"... or guys who are good once through a lineup but get figured out their second time through a lineup and tend to get blasted that 2nd time through:

In Detroit: Holton (2), Wentz (2-3) and Faedo (2-3) have shown the ability to pitch 2 or 3 innings at a time. Holton is 50/50 whether he goes 1 or 2 (without checking the actual numbers) and pitched a lot of 2 inning appearances last year IIRC. Wentz is doing OK this year (not so well last year) at a 1.24 WHIP and 0.79 ERA, 11 inn's in 7 appearances. Faedo has the 6th highest innings (after the 5 starters) at 21 in 12 appearances with a 1.14 WHIP and 2.57 ERA.

Toledo: Guessing Montero, Flores, Hurter, Brieske (already a middle innings guy, last year with Detroit 1.37 WHIP, 3.60 ERA... so not terrible) head towards multi-innings middle relief guys instead of sticking as starters. Right now they're all struggling a bit in Toledo though... The Org is still high on all these guys though as far as I know... Also: who is good out of these guys versus can't cut it in MLB? Answer: "I don't know." 3rd base.

Erie: guessing Troy Melton ends up in the BP as a 2-3-inning guy when he gets higher up.

Jaden Hamm at WM is an unknown to me. I don't know what his "stuff" is. He looks good as a starter at WM... what kind of carrying power is that though...?

The guys in the Org with the highest chances of remaining a starter (just on a WAG) I am guessing would be Manning, Jobe, and Lockhart. Maybe Hamm?

What did Gage Workman fix all of a sudden?

Dropped his switch-hitting and saw Kerry Carpenter's hitting guru in the off-season? I thought I saw someone mention that...

Two questions:

A) Does that mean Workman gets onto the "prospect radar" all of a sudden? He's always struggled with hit tool... but had power and excellent defense... But is he nothing more than Kreidler 2.0? 

B) So I guess 3 questions: Can we replace Detroit's hitting coaches with Kerry Carpenter's hitting guru?

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

I personally would go:

1. Perez

2. Canha

3. Greene

4. Vierling

5. Carpenter 

6-9. Doesn’t matter right now.

Lump the guys that are hitting together.

Bingo!

Thank you very much!

Actually...

The one thing I would do is: Bat Tork 9th. OR... if Malloy gets called up and Tork gets sent down, again, bat Malloy 9th.

Tork would be to drop pressure-to-produce to zero on him. Or if he figures out how to start hitting again he's actually "at the front of the top of the lineup" after the 1st inning... And with Malloy: same thing. Zero pressure at #9, if he is OBP'ing then he's getting on base right in front of the top of the lineup.

If it at some point either of these guys is worthy of moving higher up in the lineup then, IMO, that's a decision for a little bit later on. IMO, the right now decision is to put a Tork or a Malloy in the #9 spot, for reasons stated...

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

... And batting Greene leadoff because he'll get more at bats is perfectly justifiable...

Except for, 

IMO,

The 6 RBI's on his 6 HR's. 

And his ONE HR which actually had men on base.

I'm glad you want Greene to lead the league in solo HR's.

That's AWESOME!!!

2 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Well, Hinch should bench Perez because he may stop hitting. And bat Tork cleanup because he thinks he'll start hitting home runs. And lead Greene off so he gets 3 more at bats per week. Results be damned, do whatever feels right. Ugh...

Tork batted a .758 OPS in 2023 in 606 AB's...

That is a MUCH longer track record than Wenceel Perez so he should bat (checks: Lee's notes on sabermetrificating the optimizalled lineup): FOURTH!!!

Tork should bat FOURTH because he was their THIRD best hitter last year and has a LONGER TRACK RECORD than Wenceel Perez so he:

MUST

BAT

FOURTH!!!

(it is so... written in stone...)

15 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

he should be benched just for inventing the stupid pizza spear

I'm on board with this.

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

... and your antiquated assumption that the best hitter should bat third.  

And thank you so much for that.

I could give a rat's ass if my assumption is antiquated or not.

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

...   You are the one saying that he is their second best hitter because he has a .950 OPS.  That suggests that you think he'll do that all the time which would make him a star.  Thus, my sarcastic comment.

You said that Hinch must think he's their best hitter because he is batting 3rd.  I was pointing out that the optimal line-up has the 4th or 5th best hitter hitting 3rd, so Hinch might think that he is their 4th ot 5th best hitter.  That comment was about line-ups and your antiquated assumption that the best hitter should bat third.  

"He's the second best hitter" was my sarcastic comment to your "4th or 5th best hitter" comment.

We're going around in circles...

29 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Malloy deserves a shot, let Canha and Ibanez handle first.

There is real and meaningful baseball to be played here, and I dont know if they can wait out or work out whatever Tork is going through with him in the big leagues right now.

I am also on board with this.

Send Tork and Meadows down, bring up Malloy and Baddoo (or someone else if they want more IF or versatility...).

Let them work out their hitting problems at Toledo.

It just NEEDS to be done.

41 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

... I am just not one to hyperventilate over prospects with less than two weeks in the majors.  

No one is hyperventilating Lee.

YOU'RE the one throwing out exaggerations:

37 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I get it.  His hot start proves that he is superstar!!!

You're the only one who seems to be upset that he has started out hot and therefore using hyperbole.

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Maybe because he is their 4th or 5th best hitter.  That's who bats ...

Well...

at a .950 OPS that makes him their 2nd best hitter.

Try again.

Just now, Tiger337 said:

Maybe because he is their 4th or 5th best hitter.  That's who bats third in the modern line-up.

And I am not dismissing Perez at all.  I am hopeful about him.  I just think you are getting overly excited about a hot streak.  

Not a hot streak. He's always been an OBP guy.

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Well if Perez is going to be an allstar, by all means, bat him second!  For now, I am happy with Greene batting second.  

And again, if their bottom 4 guys are going to suck all year, it's just not going to matter where anyone bats.  

I'm not going to declare or predict him an All-Star or anything like that...

All I'm going to say is he has a track record of getting on base.

And that's all I need from him, in front of Greene.

Wenceel is on base twice today...

Did Riley get a chance to knock him in (if he were batting behind him)?

Asking for a friend.

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Perez does not have any kind of track record, so I am not building an order around him.  ...

And yet...

Hinch has him batting 3rd.

Why, again?

31 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Wenceel did finish pretty strong last season - if he's actually making a breakthrough it would be completely out of the blue, but it's still not very likely he's a 900 OPS major leaguer!

PS: so... NOT out of the blue. I mean, the late-blooming power maybe yes, but he DID fill out after signing him as a 16 year old...   😉

But the OBP not so much... he had that from the start...

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

...  In the end, batting orders are not that important especially when you've got 4 or 5 .450 OPS guys playing regularly.

Which is the primary reason I want Greene AWAY from those hitters (batting 6-9th in our lineup) and having Canha & Perez in front of him.

Those 36 PA's over a season mean less to me than getting more guys on base for him.

My opinion.

21 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Wenceel did finish pretty strong last season - if he's actually making a breakthrough it would be completely out of the blue, but it's still not very likely he's a 900 OPS major leaguer!

Wenceel was a high hit tool high-OBP prospect when we signed him as a 16 year old.

I'm not even going to speak to his slugging percentage but he HAS filled out since then... so there's that. But... I'll just call whatever he offers with slugging % as bonus and just stick with OBP for the moment:

As a 17/18 year old in Dominican and Low-A ball: .387 and .363 OBP.

As a 19 & 21 yo (2020 = pandemic = no minors play recorded) at Low and High A: he struggled. .299 and .329 OBP.

As a 22 yo, in 2022, in High A and in AA a .369 OBP.

As a 23 yo in AA and AAA a .369 OBP.

If he ends up a .900 OPS player in MLB... fantastic! But even disregarding, again, whatever SP he's able to provide, or not, in MLB... I'm comfortable with relying on him as an OBP guy that I want in front of Greene.

Just my 2 cents.

13 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

What if your best hitter is batting third and your first or second hitter makes the last out before he comes to bat?  

Not in the 1st inning.

But after that.. yeah, of course that happens.

But our bottom of the order is getting outs at roughly an 80% rate and Canha & Perez are getting out at roughly 62 and 63% rates... so there is marginally, less chance of that.

As per PA's... so Greene gets how many less PA's in a week in the 3 spot instead of the 1st spot...? 3 or 4, more or less.

So Greene has 6 empty bases HR's.

Which counts more in the run-scoring department: His PA's? Or men on base when he HR's?

I don't have the answer to that question...

I'm just asking...

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Well, it would be nice if they had Greene in front of him!

How about JUST guys who can actually get on base in front of him...

You know, like Canha and Perez instead of Meadows and Kelly/ Rogers.

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

.... He's not going to base his line-up on short-term cold or hot streaks which could end any day.  He didn't have Tork near the top of the order because he expected him to suck.  He probably had him there based on how he hit at the end of last season.  That wasn't working, so he moved him down after a period of time.  

You just refuted yourself in the same post.

Obviously, he IS basing lineup decisions on short-term numbers.

Tell me again, why is Wenceel batting 3rd today?

And Tork 7th?