mtutiger

Nothing personal, but I prefer evidence or documentation to conspiracy theories.

What isn't clear at this point is whether any of the candidates (with or without McCarthy) are *anywhere* near 217. And I also think it's interesting that, for all the members who have declared a stated preference for Jordan or Scalise, there are still quite a few who have kept their powder dry. I suspect that a lot of these folks have bitterness / resentment toward the eight and aren't going to just move off of McCarthy that easily, however doomed a prospect that might be.

Meanwhile, the benevolent Russians (at least the hard line variety) appear to be throwing in with Palestine. Someone alert MTG

It's insane the degree to which Trump's transgressions get buried just because the press considers the cake baked. Like, come the F on.... it doesn't matter if people expect him to act like a toddler and break laws, it's still front page news when you have an ex-POTUS out there spreading state secrets at his Private Club lol

Case in point... It's not great that everything in today's day and age is often reduced to sound bites... but that doesn't mean the sound bites don't contain some kernels of truth to them

I think Jordan could be worse, but at the same time, things are pretty bad right now. It would be one thing if we were talking about John Boehner (who the Dems would have saved), but Kevin McCarthy proved himself to be a terrible Speaker and, if he wanted to preserve his job, probably should have handled the position differently on a number of levels.

I'm sympathetic to Ed's point in the sense that what comes after may not be all that great (at least in the short term), it's not lost on me. But if the result had been different the other day, it wouldn't change the reality, which is that a bunch of crazy nihilists run the Republican Party right now. And as you said, that's not a problem that Democrats are going to be able to fix.... that comes down to Republican politicians and their voters. Keeping Kevin in office doesn't do much on that front, it just kicks the can down the road.... until eventually (?) the bill comes due.

He also enabled Marjorie Taylor Greene throughout his speakership while kicking Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell off of committees for basically no reason at all. All while breaking his word on the debt ceiling deal and trying to pin the blame of a possible shutdown on the Democrats (even after their caucus delivered the Lions share of the votes for the CR) I don't know what the future holds, but when you look at the totality of work, he has no one to blame but himself for what happened on Tuesday.

I would only add to this - especially in light of what happened to Kevin McCarthy and how it has been covered, today's GOP politicians (including Donald Trump) are so often covered as if they don't have agency or can't help some of the choices that they make. Or that those choices may have practical consequences. Trump on immigration is (yet) another example of this IMO

But I think is also a really good example of how Donald Trump is a really terrible advocate for any political cause he associates himself with. Americans, largely, have fallen more in the right-spectrum on border related issues, both during his Presidency and since. But during his time in office at least, he made choices on how to pursue those issues and, by extension, that hindered his ability to get anything done. Put another way, at some level, he has to be held responsible for how he framed/frames his rhetoric on border issues.... sure, the sound-biting is what it is and lacks nuance, but given how incendiary his rhetoric often was/is, he often reinforces the sound-bites as well.

Found this interesting, from the article: Cuellar is often seen as a fairly conservative Democrat and has, at times, had his words propped up by conservatives on border security related matters. He's right, of course, the border wall is a poor use of money to solve the problem. But to MIGuy's point, it's maybe a good example of how grey border issues can be and it can be hard to fit people's views into one neat little box. This is particularly true of people who live on the border in Texas as well.... and in their case, it isn't just liberals who miss the nuance, it's conservatives too.

Exactly.... anybody remember the MAGA Bomber? Funny how Burchett and the GOP never seem to find time to bring him up when the discussion of political violence comes up. The term I've heard used in the past is "nut-picking".... and in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty pointless.

Fred Upton is the name most floated in this instance... although he lobbed a bomb at McCarthy on cable news, so that probably won't happen

Both this thread and just the general actions of McCarthy heading into the votes suggest just a complete misestimation of his Dem colleagues all around, both during the lead up to the possible shutdown, the aftermath and now this vote. It's like they tried to set traps with the shutdown that didn't really materialize (with exception of maaaybe the fire alarm thing, but even that is questionable)... and then they rolled into yesterday and just assumed they'd get a few people to vote or take a walk without putting in any work at all. And it just backfired on all fronts. Going out on a limb here, but outside of being a prodigious fundraiser, McCarthy otherwise seems like a really untalented politician... and it has showed.

This is a really interesting thread giving the Dem perspective on this, and even sheds some light that I hadn't even considered.

What the knuckleheads don't understand* as well is that a Kevin McCarthy who survived on Democratic votes would have only hastened his demise as Speaker as well over the long term. It's just very strange** that all these cynical politicos are conveniently deciding to pretend we live in Sorkin-land when they all know how this game works. *they understand but are arguing in bad faith **it's not strange, they are again arguing in bad faith

Also love the folks who act like that's a consequence-free vote for Democrats pols... particularly for the vulnerable ones that MyKev would spend millions working to defeat in 2024.

Again, *this* is the guy that many feel Dems had to save today... It's not like we're talking about John Boehner or even Paul Ryan.... *this* guy

*something something* institutional norms *something something*

I'm a little surprised, but there are too many hard nos in his caucus... when no Dems offered to help for free, and with him refusing to offer anything in terms of concessions to Dems, the writing was on the wall

I still haven't heard a good explanation on this one