Active players HOF

[tiger2022]

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts on this are.

100%- Freeman, Altuve, Machado, Harper, Betts, Perez, Lindor, Judge, Ohtani, Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw.  Not sure if there is much debate with those guys.

I think there are arguments for the following:

Jose Ramirez, McCutchen, Goldschmidt, Arenado, Boegarts, Stanton, Trea Turner, Correa, Bergman, Seager, Martel, Bellinger, Yelich, Sale, Cole, Nola, DeGrom

Acuna, Devers, Soto, Riley all have excellent chances, although I view Devers and Vlad Jr as kind of similar to Cabrera in that they have so much natural talent but they don't even try to stay in shape.  So they might end up sucking by 33 or 34 kind of like Cabrera.

Any thoughts on any of the middle group of players?

Edited Thursday at 03:31 PM by tiger2022

[oblong]

Mike Trout is 100% a HOFer.

 

[oblong]

Also I like to differentiate between "If they retired right now, are they a HOFer" vs "The way they are going they are almost there" because injuries can stop that progress and it's a valid thing to consider.  You judge them on what they did not on what they would have done.    I feel like Kirby Puckett was a beneficiary of that when he got hurt.  To me he wasn't the slam dunk.

[Tiger337]

11 minutes ago, oblong said:

Mike Trout is 100% a HOFer.

 

Yes, He is.  He is like Cabrera, someone who looked like he was going to be one of the truely elite Hall of Famers, and then faded in the last part of his career, but is still 100%  

Edited Thursday at 03:57 PM by Tiger337

[Tenacious D]

33 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts on this are.

100%- Freeman, Altuve, Machado, Harper, Betts, Perez, Lindor, Judge, Ohtani, Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw.  Not sure if there is much debate with those guys.

I think there are arguments for the following:

Jose Ramirez, McCutchen, Goldschmidt, Arenado, Boegarts, Stanton, Trea Turner, Correa, Bergman, Seager, Martel, Bellinger, Yelich, Sale, Cole, Nola, DeGrom

Acuna, Devers, Soto, Riley all have excellent chances, although I view Devers and Vlad Jr as kind of similar to Cabrera in that they have so much natural talent but they don't even try to stay in shape.  So they might end up sucking by 33 or 34 kind of like Cabrera.

Any thoughts on any of the middle group of players?

Good list, but I’d swap Lindor for Jose Ramirez on the sure thing list.  

Also, I think you’re overly optimistic about Wenceel, but can see the argument 🤣

[oblong]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Yes, He is.  He is like Cabrera, someone who looked like he was going to be one of the truely elite Hall of Famers, and then faded in the last part of his career, but is still 100%  

I bet if 99% of serious baseball fans looked at his BR page from 2012-2020 they would have forgotten how good he was ,referring to Mike Trout. 

I feel that's also true with Ken Griffey Jr.

 

[oblong]

What about Salvador Perez?

Catchers get shortchanged in my opinion but he's been at it a long time and producing even though his C days are dwinding.  

[Tiger337]

23 minutes ago, oblong said:

I bet if 99% of serious baseball fans looked at his BR page from 2012-2020 they would have forgotten how good he was ,referring to Mike Trout. 

I feel that's also true with Ken Griffey Jr.

 

Griffey is a good comp.  

[Hongbit]

Since Scott Rolen made it, I’d think Nolan Arenado should be a lock.  

[Sports_Freak]

36 minutes ago, oblong said:

What about Salvador Perez?

Catchers get shortchanged in my opinion but he's been at it a long time and producing even though his C days are dwinding.  

How about Carlos Santana?

[tiger2022]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

Mike Trout is 100% a HOFer.

 

I forgot him on the list.  He's 100%.

[tiger2022]

56 minutes ago, oblong said:

What about Salvador Perez?

Catchers get shortchanged in my opinion but he's been at it a long time and producing even though his C days are dwinding.  

He's on the 100% list in my post.  For whatever reason I left Trout off it.  

[oblong]

I didn't realize that was the Perez 🙂

 

[tiger2022]

30 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Since Scott Rolen made it, I’d think Nolan Arenado should be a lock.  

I'm wondering if voters still have the Colorado player bias.  It took Todd Helton 6 tries on the ballot to get in the HOF.

I also feel that if Scott Rolen is the new benchmark, then Arenado, Goldschmidt, McCutchen should all be locks along with other HOF marginal guys.

[papalawrence]

I don't think Perez is 100%. He is 35 and his ops+ this year is 89, war is negative. Has his career to date warranted HOF? He did have the monster 48 home run year. But compare his stats to Lance Parrish, who never got any HOF consideration. Parish has higher war, slightly higher ops+, more home runs. If Sal is 100%, how is Lance an afterthought. Personally I think Freehan is a slight nod above both, with his mvp votes, gold gloves and all-star appearances. And Freehan has higher war than both. Also go look at Jorge Posada's stats. His ops and ops+ are much better.  I love Sal's game and I do consider him on the HOF fence.

[tiger2022]

I'm also thinking the expectations of the pitcher counting stats, namely wins is going to look a lot different.  

Kershaw might be the last guy to get to 200 wins.  Especially with all the injuries and game and inning limits.  There's only 3 guys under 200 wins that have at least 120.  Cole and Sale might be the last guys to have a shot for quite a while. Skubal has 48 career wins at 28.  

i know wins doesnt carry the value as a pitcher stat as iti used to, but the number that stands out now might be 150.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

What about Salvador Perez?

Catchers get shortchanged in my opinion but he's been at it a long time and producing even though his C days are dwinding.  

They do get short changed due to short careers and not a lot of games played per season.  They get undervalued by WAR too for the same reasons.  I don't think Perez belongs though, not with guys like Freehan and Munson still waiting,    

[oblong]

15 minutes ago, papalawrence said:

I don't think Perez is 100%. He is 35 and his ops+ this year is 89, war is negative. Has his career to date warranted HOF? He did have the monster 48 home run year. But compare his stats to Lance Parrish, who never got any HOF consideration. Parish has higher war, slightly higher ops+, more home runs. If Sal is 100%, how is Lance an afterthought. Personally I think Freehan is a slight nod above both, with his mvp votes, gold gloves and all-star appearances. And Freehan has higher war than both. Also go look at Jorge Posada's stats. His ops and ops+ are much better.  I love Sal's game and I do consider him on the HOF fence.

Freehan should be in.  I see that as an oversight.  

[tiger2022]

23 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

They do get short changed due to short careers and not a lot of games played per season.  They get undervalued by WAR too for the same reasons.  I don't think Perez belongs though, not with guys like Freehan and Munson still waiting,    

Do you think the HOF should be where players are measured against their peers who played in the same general years?  Or just everyone ever?

As an example, Parrish would be competing more against guys like Fisk and Carter, etc. In that example and not guys like Perez or Posey.

Edited Thursday at 06:01 PM by tiger2022

[Tiger337]

18 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

Do you think the HOF should be where players are measured against their peers who played in the same general years?  Or just everyone ever?

As an example, Parrish would be competing more against guys like Fisk and Carter, etc. In that example and not guys like Perez or Posey.

It's a combination of both.  You need to start with their peers, but if there weren't a lot great players at a position at a particular point in time that doesn't mean the best one automstically gets in.  Anyway, I think Posey was significantly better than Perez.  Molina might have been better too.  I think Perez is more like Russell Martin and JT Realmuto than Posey.  I do think Perez will get more consideration than those guys because he had the great arm and had that big home run year , but I don't think he's a 100% guy.   

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

It's a combination of both.  You need to start with their peers, but if there weren't a lot great players at a position at a particular point in time that doesn't mean the best one automstically gets in.  Anyway, I think Posey was significantly better than Perez.  Molina might have been better too.  I think Perez is more like Russell Martin and JT Realmuto than Posey.  I do think Perez will get more consideration than those guys because he had the great arm and had that big home run year , but I don't think he's a 100% guy.   

It also doesn't hurt that Sal Perez is apparently an absolute salt of the earth guy. You can say it doesn't matter, but it always does.

[tiger2022]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

It also doesn't hurt that Sal Perez is apparently an absolute salt of the earth guy. You can say it doesn't matter, but it always does.

It matters so much.  

David Ortiz...2 failed steroid tests...HOF.  writers loved him.

Barry Bonds...no chance of HOF.

No one in their right mind would argue Ortiz is even close to the player that Bonds is.

Edited Thursday at 06:44 PM by tiger2022

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

It also doesn't hurt that Sal Perez is apparently an absolute salt of the earth guy. You can say it doesn't matter, but it always does.

It doesn't carry a lot of weight with me, but I know it matters.  For example, if Whitaker was more talkative with the media, he would have made more allstar games, received more awards votes, etc.  

[Hongbit]

2 hours ago, tiger2022 said:

I'm wondering if voters still have the Colorado player bias.  It took Todd Helton 6 tries on the ballot to get in the HOF.

I also feel that if Scott Rolen is the new benchmark, then Arenado, Goldschmidt, McCutchen should all be locks along with other HOF marginal guys.

Rolen’s resume was bolstered by his defense.  The 8 gold gloves definitely played a big part in his enshrinement.   Arenado had 10 straight.  That’s a big number if the voters are going to value them.  

[Arlington]

4 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

How about Carlos Santana?

Could he be the first name in both the Baseball and Rock HOFs