chasfh Posted July 23 Posted July 23 3 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: Everyone thinks all the Tigers prospects are going to be hall of famers or perennial all stars at worst. They have a chance at the world series this season. They need to take it because there is a good chance those guys will end up like all those amazing Baltimore Oriole prospects everyone on this board was gushing their pants over....remember Cowser, Herjstad, Mayo, etc. Remember the guys that were going to dominate? Maybe 1 of the Tigers top guys turns out to be above average or a star. Most of the pitchers are going to be Casey Mize-esque at best. The majority are going to be bench players or average players. Get mlb talent for them while they are worth something. Do you believe in go for broke every time, everyone's available, this year or bust? Quote
tiger2022 Posted July 23 Posted July 23 Trading prospects that most likely will end up just being another guy who struggles to hit or retire hitters isn't going for broke. You can think all those guys are going to be all-star stars but that isn't the way things work. Remember how Keith, Jung, and Malloy were supposed to all be studs? Two of those guys are going to be AAA players their career and the other is a below average hitter who will never get a lot of playing time because of atrocious defense. You have Skubal one more year, Greene, tork four more years, those are your 3 core players. Who knows how many more years of Carpenter you have left. They have Mize for another 2 years, not that he's super vital to the team. I'd prefer to see them add mlb players now and go for the championship as opposed to waiting and hoping those other guys turn out. And I'm not saying trade everybody in the farm system. But people get so excited about prospects just like people do about NFL draft picks. 90% of the time, they don't pan out Quote
1984Echoes Posted July 23 Posted July 23 3 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: The first place Blue Jays are not trading their starting SS so they can downgrade CF from Varsho to Meadows. I DIDN'T say the Jays were trading us Bichette for Meadows... I said IF we trade for someone LIKE Bichette... that makes Meadows tradeable, imo. That says nothing about same trade, that says nothing about the Jays actually trading Bichette... That is a cheap shot post you made there... IMO. Quote
chasfh Posted July 23 Posted July 23 1 hour ago, tiger2022 said: Trading prospects that most likely will end up just being another guy who struggles to hit or retire hitters isn't going for broke. You can think all those guys are going to be all-star stars but that isn't the way things work. Remember how Keith, Jung, and Malloy were supposed to all be studs? Two of those guys are going to be AAA players their career and the other is a below average hitter who will never get a lot of playing time because of atrocious defense. You have Skubal one more year, Greene, tork four more years, those are your 3 core players. Who knows how many more years of Carpenter you have left. They have Mize for another 2 years, not that he's super vital to the team. I'd prefer to see them add mlb players now and go for the championship as opposed to waiting and hoping those other guys turn out. And I'm not saying trade everybody in the farm system. But people get so excited about prospects just like people do about NFL draft picks. 90% of the time, they don't pan out Nothing wrong with wanting what you want. I don’t think Harris sees it that way. Quote
tiger2022 Posted July 23 Posted July 23 I think Harris might add a bullpen arm but that's about it. I would like to see the Tigers go after Taylor Ward from the Angels. Not sure what they would need to give up, but he could slide into LF and Vierling slides back into a bench role, Carpenter can DH full time when he comes back. Quote
AlaskanTigersFan Posted July 24 Author Posted July 24 I think Harris will be reserved. I think he'll look at marginal deals, not necessarily for stars. But Something along the lines of Jung for a Reliever. I think he's looking at the depth chart. Jung can still be good and if he was still prospect rating worthy, he'd be between 5-8 on our prospect list. But he's now the 3rd or 4th best at SS/3B in our organization. So he's got hype value still. Jung for someone like Bednar wouldn't surprise me at all. I could see the Cubs trading someone like Owen Cassie for Emanuel Clase or someone like that. But only if there's multiple years of control. Or they could do Cassie and someone like Jackson Wiggins for Mitch Keller + Bednar. You're right that the Cubs are built to win now. I could see them making a move like that including their top prospect. I don't think the Tigers will touch their top 5 but Jung his the highest prospect value we have that will be moved. Just my $0.02. (Honestly I wouldn't mind keeping Jung. I think he can fix his crap and be an average 3B at least. But I think he gets moved this trade deadline) Quote
Tenacious D Posted July 24 Posted July 24 I think this is a flawed, 85-90 win team that significantly overachieved. I also don’t think they are nearly as bad as they’ve been lately. Im opposed to doing anything foolish, especially for rentals. I hope we make the playoffs, but it’s not worth plugging a few holes at high cost to mortgage our future. Trade from org depth and focus on help that can contribute for a few seasons, at least. The dream scenario would be Steven Kwan and Cade Smith from Cleveland, but I doubt Harris would pay. I’m also not getting hung up on the Skubal window—realistically, ‘27 is when our top prospects are likely to contribute. Hope Skubal is part of that. 2 Quote
alex Posted July 24 Posted July 24 13 hours ago, tiger2022 said: Everyone thinks all the Tigers prospects are going to be hall of famers or perennial all stars at worst. They have a chance at the world series this season. They need to take it because there is a good chance those guys will end up like all those amazing Baltimore Oriole prospects everyone on this board was gushing their pants over....remember Cowser, Herjstad, Mayo, etc. Remember the guys that were going to dominate? Maybe 1 of the Tigers top guys turns out to be above average or a star. Most of the pitchers are going to be Casey Mize-esque at best. The majority are going to be bench players or average players. Get mlb talent for them while they are worth something. You make a very good point. This has a lot of history, each team and esp their GM 'thinking' they have 'the guys'. I remember Al Avila saying he was getting many calls one trade deadline for the likes of: Fullmer, Norris and Boyd. His near exact words were "It is like I have gold"... ALL teams/GMs think that way about their prospects and fans buy into it - their fans, lol. IMHO, I think Harris has to learn this still. My next dilemma is what I have asked many times: 'Does Harris have the knack, the ability to make trades for MLB players who can help this team?' Not MLB players for prospects. Harris said before (paraphrasing) 'We need a core'... 'If we are in position we would like to add.' Well, here we are. Yes, a bump in the road recently. Yet, which team does not have this over 162 games? See Dodgers now where many are really on 'MBetts'. ALL teams have struggles during a season. Even the eventual WS winner. Question: Were the Tigers just a fluke for the first 90 games this year? For the last 130 games they played (counting the last 1/3 of 2024)? Yes, they may have played a bit over their heads - but not for 130 games. Right now - they are not this bad. If so, then they could finish 4th-5th in the Central. The Tigers ARE in first right now in the Central. Fans often only see what is in front of them (the last 14 games). Cleveland may actually sell still at this deadline (heck, we did last year and look what happened still). With said there will more than likely NOT be 3 teams into the postseason from the AL Central for 2025. Trades? No way would I deal Clark, Rainer, McMonigle or CRodriguez and or one of Liranzo or Briceno (unless you are getting a star player with years of control). Yet, no team is going to trade anything near equivalent to that get ESuarez or a package for him and say ZGallen. I do think the Tigers need to acquire some pieces to help take some pressure off the current team. This could be done trading prospects (not those mentioned above) for some help. Again, teams will not be trading (because they do not have) the equivalent to get the help they need. Harris needs to get creative. Deal 2 or 4 prospects for 1-2 MLB players who can help. Prospects rated in 6-20 pool are not garbage. If that is the case then there will be no hope for Detroit in the future (remember our system is rated very well). Let the other teams figure out 'what' they would like in that pool. You add Suarez (or someone who can help) and bring back Carp - the lineup is better. Greene, Tork, etc. are under a lot of pressure (yet, it IS part of the maturation process). This helps them be themselves. (note: BTW, that is why I feel AJ really wanted Bregman here. He has the grit, experience, leadership qualities, etc - to help during these competing times). If you would of been told the Tigers were in first place on July 24 before the deadline by 8 games with the first/second best record in the AL - you, Harris and AJ more than likely would of taken that in a NY minute! If that is not enough to be pro-active at the deadline - then nothing is. They have a chance this year. Skubal is here now. Unless the last 130 or so games were a fluke (maybe?) then they should go for it. Again, not trading the top 4-5 prospects I listed (unless acquiring a younger star player with control). Teams will package for the players they feel they want. This team needs a leverage RP, a second RP (maybe LH if the latter is not). Another bat. If not two RPs then 1 and a decent SP, then we can put another arm in the BP. What do I think will happen. We will find out more about Harris's ability to make deals. If he cannot do this - then when Clark, McMonigle, Rainer, etc. are here it more than likely will be NO different when/IF that 'core group is ever in position. We should at least come out with something like Bednar (or KFinnegan) and IKFalafa (or ASlater) along with another 'whatever' RP for a marginal prospect. Not sure that is going to help that much - but it could help some. Optimal one good to decent bat (Suarez, TWard, LRobert Jr, etc. - note: look at how much AVaughn has helped Milwaukee) to help take on some pressure off our hitters and a good high leverage RP who misses bats (Bautista, Duran, Smith, Helsley, etc.). Maybe another RP of some sort (heck ALange, TRainey, DSmith could even be that). The names may not be as important as the ability of the acquired player to help (scouting is key here). We do not and SHOULD not have to give up our very top prospects. A good GM/CEO can swing a deal or two to help make a contending team better. (BTW: I do feel SHarris has done very well with scouting, facilities, drafting, nutrition and looking more into physiology and injuries, etc.) I am not sure what role GM Greenberg really plays. The true improvement (back on the horse idea) must come from our current players. With said a shot in the arm from the GM could help. I hope Harris has the ability to do something here. This is what I have questioned all along - does Scott Harris have the ability to acquire MLB players, not players for prospects, to help the team? Also, there will be injuries for ALL teams. Some will be devastating. Depth is of utmost importance and a little 'luck' must be there as well. Go Tigers 😀 Quote
chasfh Posted July 24 Posted July 24 If the benchmark for Scott Harris is to get players along the lines of Suarez and Bednar and Clase and Keller and Cade Smith and do so without giving up any of our top five players, I think we’re going to have a lot of disappointed posters here on August 1. Although I do think we could get Taylor Ward at a cost of guys in the 6-20 range, if Taylor Ward were a guy Harris wanted. Not sure what would we do with Riley in that case, though. Quote
Tiger337 Posted July 24 Posted July 24 15 hours ago, chasfh said: Do you believe in go for broke every time, everyone's available, this year or bust? I don't know about "go for broke". You only do that if the right trade can be made, but now is as good a time as ever to make a big move. They've got an 8-game lead and the best pitcher in baseball. After next year, they will most likely not have that pitcher and they probably won't have anyone close to that. They may be in better shape in a couple of years or maybe they'll be like the White Sox a few years ago or the Orioles now. When you have a team which probably won't be able to keep their best players, I think you have to take advantage of every opportunity. Quote
chasfh Posted July 24 Posted July 24 15 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I don't know about "go for broke". You only do that if the right trade can be made, but now is as good a time as ever to make a big move. They've got an 8-game lead and the best pitcher in baseball. After next year, they will most likely not have that pitcher and they probably won't have anyone close to that. They may be in better shape in a couple of years or maybe they'll be like the White Sox a few years ago or the Orioles now. When you have a team which probably won't be able to keep their best players, I think you have to take advantage of every opportunity. I think Skubal is the only one we are in danger of losing soon and that’s not even next year, unless you’re also thinking of Gleyber and Javy and Casey and Flaherty. Given the team we have, I can’t envision what the one big fix is that would snap us out of a 1-9 funk and put us on track to being a .667 team again. We could liquidate Pipeline Top 100 guys for shiny top trade targets and still stumble our way to the finish line and go splat in October. Making a big move that fails risks Scott Harris’s plan to build the core he has said his goal is, not to mention putting his job at risk. He’s in a very different situation from a Jed Hoyer or Jerry Dipoto, so I’d be surprised to see Harris blow up his longer term plans for a ring-or-bust move next week. 1 Quote
Tiger337 Posted July 24 Posted July 24 3 minutes ago, chasfh said: I think Skubal is the only one we are in danger of losing soon and that’s not even next year, unless you’re also thinking of Gleyber and Javy and Casey and Flaherty. Given the team we have, I can’t envision what the one big fix is that would snap us out of a 1-9 funk and put us on track to being a .667 team again. We could liquidate Pipeline Top 100 guys for shiny top trade targets and still stumble our way to the finish line and go splat in October. Making a big move that fails risks Scott Harris’s plan to build the core he has said his goal is, not to mention putting his job at risk. He’s in a very different situation from a Jed Hoyer or Jerry Dipoto, so I’d be surprised to see Harris blow up his longer term plans for a ring-or-bust move next week. Skubal is one pretty big piece to lose! When all the great prospects are ready in a couple of years, it might be time for Greene, Torkelson and Carpenter to leave. I don't think there is some magical point in the future where we can say they are ready. They are ready now, maybe as much as they'll ever be. I am not saying this in response to their 1-9 funk. If I thought they were a bad team, I wouldn't suggest they explore a big move. I don't have a particular move in mind. I wouldn't want them to trade top prospects for a two month rental. If there is someone signed past this year, I'd consider it. Quote
alex Posted July 24 Posted July 24 (edited) 48 minutes ago, chasfh said: If the benchmark for Scott Harris is to get players along the lines of Suarez and Bednar and Clase and Keller and Cade Smith and do so without giving up any of our top five players, I think we’re going to have a lot of disappointed posters here on August 1. Although I do think we could get Taylor Ward at a cost of guys in the 6-20 range, if Taylor Ward were a guy Harris wanted. Not sure what would we do with Riley in that case, though. For me that is not a 'benchmark' for Scott Harris. I mentioned he is doing quite well in other areas. It is a part of his ability that I question. Can he get MLB players to help his team in the time of need (now or when Clark, Rainer, etc. are here when/if they are contending then). I think you can get good MLB players in trades without giving up your absolute best prospects (and remember they are porspects - see Baltimore '24). We saw it last year, the year before, etc. No need to give up a top 50 MLB guy to help your team acquire a 'rental'. I will not be disappointed myself if he does not get Suarez, and Bednar and Clase, etc. I/people may very well be when we see 'what' other GMs give up to get the mentioned names who are dealt and what is the equivalent in our system. What to do with Riley in case of a Taylor Ward type? Riley stays in LF of course, lol. Yet, he cannot continue as is or no players are going to help. The acquired OF type player fits in where he can: LF at times (Riley can DH), RF, DH... If it is an INF then they will work that out with the group they have (there WILL be injuries for all teams). Heck, they should really evaluate PMeadows here. I do like him as a player. Yet, could LRobert Jr help (he has option years and will NOT cost a top 100 prospect)? Meadows cannot continue at this pace either. Yes he missed ST, but we are contending? As AJ said/asked (to his team supposedly) after last years deadline deals 'are we in development mode (like for the last 10 years) or are we trying to win games?' My question is and has been can Harris get MLB players to help his team in the time of need (now or when Clark, Rainer, etc. are here when/if they are contending). If not, then we may never be able to actually put ourselves in a better position to win a WS. As I mentioned also, what is Jeff Greenberg's GM role. Does he really have the ability to make a deal or is he just a 'guy' Harris has known, bounces ideas off of, etc. If that is the case, he should have gotten someone who has the ability to help 'negotiate' MLB deals to help him out. I hope to come back here and post a simple 'Yes, X and X player may help' way to go Harris (regardless of outcome) - and also evaluate (just my 2 cents) WHAT did the other GMs actually give up to acquire above said players (ex players you mentioned) and our own teams equivalent thereof. Edited July 24 by alex Quote
chasfh Posted July 24 Posted July 24 15 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Skubal is one pretty big piece to lose! When all the great prospects are ready in a couple of years, it might be time for Greene, Torkelson and Carpenter to leave. I don't think there is some magical point in the future where we can say they are ready. They are ready now, maybe as much as they'll ever be. I am not saying this in response to their 1-9 funk. If I thought they were a bad team, I wouldn't suggest they explore a big move. I don't have a particular move in mind. I wouldn't want them to trade top prospects for a two month rental. If there is someone signed past this year, I'd consider it. Greene, Tork and Carpenter are under control until 2029. If we can’t get Max, McGonigle, Liranzo et al here and contributing before then, then something’s gone horribly wrong! 😉 I do think Harris will make at least one move, but I wouldn’t be surprised that it will be a move nobody thought of before, nobody thinks much of at the time, he gets criticized for not going bigger, and the return turns out to be good solid contributors. Quote
Tiger337 Posted July 24 Posted July 24 2 minutes ago, chasfh said: Greene, Tork and Carpenter are under control until 2029. If we can’t get Max, McGonigle, Liranzo et al here and contributing before then, then something’s gone horribly wrong! 😉 Maybe McGonigle and Clark and Liranzo take as long to get good as Torkelson and Adell or maybe they never get that good. Maybe Greene and Carpenter keep getting hurt and peak early. All I know is that they've got an 8-game lead and the best pitcher in baseball right now and that may never happen again. Quote
RedTeamGo! Posted July 24 Posted July 24 Tigers Get: Nick Martinez Reds Get: Max Anderson Who says no? Quote
SoCalTiger Posted July 24 Posted July 24 I am expecting one or two somewhat modest moves and retaining the core of our farm system. Relievers unheralded or on expiring contracts. If Riley Greene-Tork-Carpenter- Torres don't hit getting The Judge wouldn't push us over the line. There really isn't much available and it would be stupid to get into bidding war for a rental. I agree with those who say Harris won't do that but we shall see. Quote
chasfh Posted July 24 Posted July 24 13 minutes ago, RedTeamGo! said: Tigers Get: Nick Martinez Reds Get: Max Anderson Who says no? I can see why you like it! Quote
alex Posted July 24 Posted July 24 (edited) 23 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: I am expecting one or two somewhat modest moves and retaining the core of our farm system. Relievers unheralded or on expiring contracts. If Riley Greene-Tork-Carpenter- Torres don't hit getting The Judge wouldn't push us over the line. There really isn't much available and it would be stupid to get into bidding war for a rental. I agree with those who say Harris won't do that but we shall see. Agree. However, should we become sellers and let the other GMs get into a so-called bidding war and get more 'core' prospects from another team? ex CMize (some control years as well)? Then just get a marginal SP for a prospect on our end and continue our run (see last year)? I really do not think any GM is going to gut a farm system for a rental. That is part of my point. The same question I ask; Does Harris have the ability to get some MLB talent to help for a stretch drive? Can he negotiate the equivalent of what others are going to give up and get it? This does not mean any top 50 type player! Is there a pattern here - we (Detroit) have to give up type A prospects to get someone - while in the end another GM has to give up much less (seemingly, in a so-called bidding war) to get the same player? Yet, if sellers, maybe we can sell and capitalize and get a top 50 guy or so 😉 Edited July 24 by alex Quote
AlaskanTigersFan Posted July 24 Author Posted July 24 I don't understand the fascination with Taylor Ward. A .232/.309/.488 (with a .268 BABIP and a 26% K rate). He also has a minus 2.7 defensive value. Yea the dude can hit some home runs. But being able to get on base at a .309 clip? Due for massive regression. And a terrible defender. Ironic though because a guy I work with went to school with him and is really good freinds with him. But I don't get why we'd want him. Seems like some pop off the bench but I wouldn't want him out there every day. I'd rather go after Ryan O'Hearn and stick him in LF. Jung + Hamm could probably get it done. We don't need to give up our top 5 guys for O'hearn. If we wanted to get crazy then we could look at a package for O'Hearn and Felix Bautista. Then we might be looking at adding in someone like Liranzo or Lee to the previous package. But then you address the Bat and closer without totally sapping your farm team. I think Jung and Hamm will both be very productive MLB players. Liranzo and Lee will too but I think they'd be more average than above average. It can be done. Quote
RedTeamGo! Posted July 24 Posted July 24 10 minutes ago, chasfh said: I can see why you like it! Didn't say I did, ha. Just curious how the Tigers prospects are viewed. This guy is around 10th ranked in system according to mlb pipeline. Quote
AlaskanTigersFan Posted July 24 Author Posted July 24 24 minutes ago, RedTeamGo! said: Tigers Get: Nick Martinez Reds Get: Max Anderson Who says no? I think if Nick Martinez was under contract for another year then yes. But for one year probably a no imo. I think they can use Anderson + someone else (Jung, Lee, Liranzo) to get Mitch Keller and Bednar from the Pirates. Would fit us better. Quote
Tiger337 Posted July 24 Posted July 24 12 minutes ago, chasfh said: I can see why you like it! I wouldn't do it because Martinez doesn't help the Tigers, but are they really going to get much for Anderson in a one for one? Quote
RedTeamGo! Posted July 24 Posted July 24 Just now, Tiger337 said: I wouldn't do it because Martinez doesn't help the Tigers, but are they really going to get much for Anderson in a one for one? Seems like Tiges need pitching, no? Quote
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