Larkin wants out?

[gehringer_2]

28 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

I don’t remember Yzerman saying anything critical other than an indication of disappointment that Larkin did not keep something in house that he should have kept in house. 

Anyway, I think this deal provides a floor for the Larkin deal. It is also the first domino to fall. There are only a few options out there for teams that want to make a major upgrade and now Brady is off the list. I’ll be surprised (and alarmed) if this gets dragged out beyond the draft. 

The one I remember he actually didn't mention him by name but seemed to pretty directly complain he was deficient because team morale was a team leadership (i.e. Larkin)  responsibility it had failed at.

""I'm counting on our best players, our leaders, to give us a bit of a morale boost. That's what they're paid for and that's the expectation for them."

This reads pretty much a direct slam at Larkin for reporting that team moral was low last season.

Edited June 22 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

34 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

I don’t remember Yzerman saying anything critical other than an indication of disappointment that Larkin did not keep something in house that he should have kept in house. 

Anyway, I think this deal provides a floor for the Larkin deal. It is also the first domino to fall. There are only a few options out there for teams that want to make a major upgrade and now Brady is off the list. I’ll be surprised (and alarmed) if this gets dragged out beyond the draft. 

It he doesn't move before the draft I guess that means he's committed to the status quo - that he can make the playoffs next year with what he gets back plus whatever gets promoted from GR.  That could easily be true but would that be the best route to getting the rest of the way to a cup win????

[Jason_R]

21 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

The one I remember he actually didn't mention him by name but seemed to pretty directly complain he was deficient because team morale was a team leadership (i.e. Larkin)  responsibility it had failed at.

""I'm counting on our best players, our leaders, to give us a bit of a morale boost. That's what they're paid for and that's the expectation for them."

This reads pretty much a direct slam at Larkin for reporting that team moral was low last season.

Yeah I remember that. I figure other executives would understand why Yzerman would be frustrated that Larkin aired dirty laundry, but would also understand why a player of Larkin’s caliber would grow impatient. I doubt it makes a difference in trade value. 

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Yeah I remember that. I figure other executives would understand why Yzerman would be frustrated that Larkin aired dirty laundry, but would also understand why a player of Larkin’s caliber would grow impatient. I doubt it makes a difference in trade value. 

no probably not in ultimate value, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't hear it repeated back to him in the course of negotiations  

[buddha]

i think youre making a mountain out of a mole hill in order to criticize yzerman.

[gehringer_2]

25 minutes ago, buddha said:

i think youre making a mountain out of a mole hill in order to criticize yzerman.

You think I'm fixed on Yzerman, I don't really care about Yzerman. He's just another GM. I will always appreciate his heroics as a player but they mean nothing to me one way or the other to how I see him in this role - different lives. If that means I'm willing to be more critical of him because to me he's not protected by some historic hero aura, maybe that's why.

So it's not a mole hill when players are criticized by management. It's not a molehill when a player you picked to lead your team demands a trade (the one maybe even being a factor in the other). This is a big crossroads for this team - and the result is anything but guaranteed - could go anywhere from vaulting them into being a solid contender to years more futility and everything in between. When the postmortems get written on how this team ultimately succeeded or failed, all the details will be in the mix.

Was Larkin the bigger jerk, was Yzerman? Maybe both. I don't pretend to know but I'm not giving either side a pass at this point.

Edited June 22 by gehringer_2

[Shinzaki]

I don't care who is or isn't a jerk...I want the best outcome.  That appears to be Larkin going elsewhere fpor assets that more closely align with our younger core.  Going to assume that kane will leave and that it might be wise to shop Cat and Faulk as well.

My biggest worry is that the young C's we have in the system ..namely Danielson and Kasper...don't pan out.  Then we really hve nothing down the middle and are looking at an even longer rebuild

[Jason_R]

Yzerman is known as The Captain™️ because he practiced and preached radical accountability as a player. Let’s see if he can do this as a GM. 

Maybe he had been fighting to get Larkin there but Larkin just wasn’t able to do it. What worries me is the thought that Stevie makes the players feel like they can never measure up, so like Larkin and maybe Cossa and others they just get demoralized. 

[buddha]

42 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

You think I'm fixed on Yzerman, I don't really care about Yzerman. He's just another GM. I will always appreciate his heroics as a player but they mean nothing to me one way or the other to how I see him in this role - different lives. If that means I'm willing to be more critical of him because to me he's not protected by some historic hero aura, maybe that's why.

So it's not a mole hill when players are criticized by management. It's not a molehill when a player you picked to lead your team demands a trade (the one maybe even being a factor in the other). This is a big crossroads for this team - and the result is anything but guaranteed - could go anywhere from vaulting them into being a solid contender to years more futility and everything in between. When the postmortems get written on how this team ultimately succeeded or failed, all the details will be in the mix.

Was Larkin the bigger jerk, was Yzerman? Maybe both. I don't pretend to know but I'm not giving either side a pass at this point.

i'm not giving him a pass for failing to build a good team.  i've been pretty clear about that.

i AM giving him a pass for larkin suddenly wanting out (at the exact same time a bunch of other usmnt hockey players have asked out...hmmmm...maybe there is a non-yzerman related pattern there?).  

if larkin demanded to be traded because steve yzerman said that the best players on the team need to play better, then dylan larkin is free to go.  youre the captain.  take the feedback and move on.  if anything, yzerman was very diplomatic this year about his captain's annual year end collapse.

again.  tkachuck wanted out.  hughes wanted out.  larkin wanted out.  they all got together and decided they wanted to play together.  that's not yzerman's fault and it is apparent that is the driving force behind this spate of trade requests.

 

[Jason_R]

Let’s go. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

I know 3-way trades don't happen often in the NHL, but I would love to get San Jose involved with us and Dallas on a Robertson trade. Larkin to Dallas, Robertson to San Jose, the #2 overall pick to Detroit. There's no point in having Robertson on this team without a center to pair him with. Who is going to facilitate the offense on the first line and feed him the pick with Larkin gone? Andrew Copp? Marco Kasper? JT Compher? A rookie in Nate Danielson?  Michael Rasmussen? Look at the best centers set to hit free agency. Jason Dickinson, Jack Roslovic, Erik Huala, Scott Laughton. Are you kidding me. Why would Robertson want to stay to play here with who we have at center for him. He'll demand a trade and we'll be right back in the same boat.

Unless I can use Robertson to get the high draft capital or top prospects I really want so that we can start the rebuild over again, no thanks.

[gehringer_2]

36 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Yzerman is known as The Captain™️ because he practiced and preached radical accountability as a player. Let’s see if he can do this as a GM. 

Maybe he had been fighting to get Larkin there but Larkin just wasn’t able to do it. What worries me is the thought that Stevie makes the players feel like they can never measure up, so like Larkin and maybe Cossa and others they just get demoralized. 

interesting thoughts. Plus consider that Yzerman's teams hit their peak under Scotty Bowman, a coach infamous for actually making players uncomfortable. A lot of that hangs together - but the question then is can you do that today? With athletes that are smarter, way richer, have more legal and bargaining protection, is that whole system of managing teams and players obsolete? Is Yzerman's frame of reference about winning in a world that has moved on? You hope not - but it's another theory in the mix.

[gehringer_2]

42 minutes ago, buddha said:

tkachuck wanted out.  hughes wanted out.  larkin wanted out.  they all got together and decided they wanted to play together.  that's not yzerman's fault and it is apparent that is the driving force behind this spate of trade requests.

You make it sound like they've been watching the NBA or something.

.  

Edited June 22 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

Just now, gehringer_2 said:

You make it sound like they've been watching too much NBA.  

that's exactly what's happening.

[buddha]

5 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I know 3-way trades don't happen often in the NHL, but I would love to get San Jose involved with us and Dallas on a Robertson trade. Larkin to Dallas, Robertson to San Jose, the #2 overall pick to Detroit. There's no point in having Robertson on this team without a center to pair him with. Who is going to facilitate the offense on the first line and feed him the pick with Larkin gone? Andrew Copp? Marco Kasper? JT Compher? A rookie in Nate Danielson?  Michael Rasmussen? Look at the best centers set to hit free agency. Jason Dickinson, Jack Roslovic, Erik Huala, Scott Laughton. Are you kidding me. Why would Robertson want to stay to play here with who we have at center for him. He'll demand a trade and we'll be right back in the same boat.

Unless I can use Robertson to get the high draft capital or top prospects I really want so that we can start the rebuild over again, no thanks.

this will sound strange, but if i'm detroit, is the #2 pick this year something i want?

is viggo a future superstar?

[buddha]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

You make it sound like they've been watching too much NBA.  

from pierre:

"The Athletic’s Pierre LeBrun reported that Tkachuk, who had a full no-movement clause but clearly wanted out of Ottawa despite his protestations, would only approve a trade to the Panthers, Carolina Hurricanes, Vegas Golden Knights and perhaps the Minnesota Wild."

sound familiar?

[buddha]

it's a players game.  they'll control where they want to work.

the league could stop it but it will need to change the cba to do it.  and some teams - those who are winning now, those in low tax/no tax states - wont want it to change.

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, buddha said:

that's exactly what's happening.

And the Wild are the Brooklyn Nets?  😂

But in the end for Tkachuk,  blood was apparently thicker than water - and Brady went to play with his brother.

Edited June 22 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

And the Wild are the Brooklyn Nets?  😂

But in the end for Tkachuk,  blood was apparently thicker than water - and Brady went to play with his brother.

well, his brother doesnt play for vegas, carolina, or minnesota...

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

it's a players game.  they'll control where they want to work.

As I gotten older my ideas have shifted on this kind of stuff a lot. It's the players that do all the work, I don't mind if they get all the $$ and/or control. Any team managment part will end up self-limiting though because the experience is that players usually bungle it!

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Jason_R said:

Maybe he had been fighting to get Larkin there but Larkin just wasn’t able to do it. What worries me is the thought that Stevie makes the players feel like they can never measure up,

another observation: Yzerman was a very fast player in a league where that really stood out. Nothing was more typical to see in a Wings game than a guy lining up Yzerman to check and the player meeting empty boards because Yzerman was gone. Larkin is a very fast player in a league where now every one is fast. And he's a great accurate shot, but that combination doesn't set him as far above his league as Yzerman's did. So maybe the 100 pt etc   expectation is just not justified. Especially later in the year in playoff runs when the game gets more physical given that Larkin's Wings teams have never had the size/toughness up front to go with and protect their skilled players.I come back to this point a lot but I think it is really a critical aspect.

Edited June 22 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

39 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

As I gotten older my ideas have shifted on this kind of stuff a lot. It's the players that do all the work, I don't mind if they get all the $$ and/or control. Any team managment part will end up self-limiting though because the experience is that players usually bungle it!

then dont sign a contract for 8 years.

i have little sympathy for owners, they dont have to pay big money to older declining players.  likewise, i dont have a lot of sympathy for players who sign a long term deal and then run when things get tough.  

and if you do sign a contract, demand the nmc, and then demand a trade, i have zero sympathy if you spend a year sitting in the stands waiting to play.

[Jason_R]

The beat guy for the Wild on theathletic.com Says Minnesota has made a huge offer for Larkin. I don’t know how big the offer could be with their current roster but this Russo guy has 200,000 followers so I assume he has actual sources. 

I would be surprised if there weren’t two or three offers on the table that Stevie is weighing and slow playing. 

[buddha]

5 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

The beat guy for the Wild on theathletic.com Says Minnesota has made a huge offer for Larkin. I don’t know how big the offer could be with their current roster but this Russo guy has 200,000 followers so I assume he has actual sources. 

I would be surprised if there weren’t two or three offers on the table that Stevie is weighing and slow playing. 

nothing minnesota could offer detroit would be "huge" for detroit.

that's a minnesota homer who thinks wellstedt, stramel and a first in 2030 is somehow "huge."

[Jason_R]

🤔