1984Echoes

Do you have a "soul"? Do you have a "mind" or a "self"? If you have a "mind", SEPARATE from your brain... how does your "mind" tell your brain and body to do things? Like stand up, and start exercising, for example? This is what G2 is struggling to understand; why he is searching for an interface between "mind" and brain... which does not exist. If your "soul" is separate from your body, then how are you going to get it to ascend to "Valhalla", to join your Favorite God/ Creator... (Odin, of course)? These are the questions (not on "soul", but on "mind", which the two are somewhat related...) that G2 is asking. And like a good atheist, I know that there is no floating entity, separate from our bodies, called "soul" or "mind" or "self". It is all biochemical processes. G2 is having difficulty understanding how we can be a gag of bones, errr, biochemical processes, and not just function like a programmed machine. I'm trying to explain it to him... But I don't think he sees it yet...

NO I didn't. I gave you a SPECIFIC example of volition. Instinct: Hunger. VOLITION: DON'T eat right now, DESPITE hunger signals. WAIT, for an hour, or two, or whenever I DECIDE that I want to eat, despite hunger pangs. Finish the project I am working on. And THEN go eat. That's volition. If it was programming, at the signal of hunger I go eat. Period. Because I am programmed to do so. To DELAY eating, to a time of my own choosing, is NOT programming. Did you miss that? I know I was too wordy above... Another example. There is NO programming that told me that I MUST go out and buy a gallon of milk and a case of Dr. Pepper. Or to purchase a case of Cherry Pepsi INSTEAD of Dr. Pepper. But I did that, of my own VOLITION. NOT TRUE.

They're still a good team. With weaknesses of course... But I'm going to start calling them the Kardiac Kitties instead of the Lions...

Ah, OK... so you're speaking to interface, SPECIFICALLY. So let's concentrate on that. But also: No, this is too limiting to what I have described. Self-identity, yes, but I gave much more than that... I gave an actual set of instructions as an example, couched in language skills, from my "self" to my motor functions, using biochemical processes. But... if you are asking specifically about the interface... then I was sort of "beating around the bush" and not speaking specifically to that interface. I think I described the overall process of making conscious decisions that direct my motor functions through biochemical processes, but not... The Interface!!! (Coming soon to a theater near you...!!!) So... this goes back to the very definition of "self", which I will dispute and put in biochemical terms. I believe that... most people, believe that they have a "soul", or a "mind", or a "self" that is somehow separate from their biochemical processes. And that this separate entity (self/ mind/ soul, whatever you wish to call it)... is "Accepted" in all of society. In almost all definitions. I dispute that (as a good atheist would...) 😉 So... My "mind", is a biochemical historical record of all my memories, all of my learned language skills, etc. There are different regions of the brain for these, which, if you've studied brain chemistry then you know this. There are also audio and visual regions, and also "motor" function areas, with further breakdowns to voluntary (motor movements like arms & legs) versus involuntary (lungs and heart muscles are not controllable... although I can hold my breath, under water, for a minute or two...). 😉 One other thing related: I'm sure you're aware of different memory/ brain tests in which a subject is given visual stimuli such as pictures of: A cat, a hospital, a car crash, etc...? And the resultant regions of the brain that spring to life with these stimuli? The visual "pattern" that stimulates specific neuron patterns in your brain is memorized. Different experiences per person, different stimuli, different neuron patterns. Each person is different and unique (has a unique "mind", or persona if you will) based on the above. So... I'm stating that a person's "mind" is also biochemical. It is not a separate entity from the biochemical processes of the brain, it IS the biochemical processes of the brain. The memories. The neural patterns from stimuli. The language(s) learned by the individual. As well as the instinctual things like hunger. Now, as for the interface... There is no interface. It appears to me (tell me if I'm wrong) that you are still trying to connect a separated "mind" TO the biochemical processes of the brain. But... if my "mind" is simply biochemical neural patterns, no one will be able "tie" a decision I make to any specific location within my brain that could be defined as "mind" or "Interface". To whit: Instinct: Hunger. Location: Hypothalamus. Controllable by "mind" or "directed biochemical processes" (DBP)? No. Decision: Wait an hour, even though Hunger Instinct says "Eat NOW!", because I want to finish the project I am working on. Controllable by "mind" or DPB? Yes. Action. DON'T stand up from my office chair and make that omelette from leftover Thanksgiving "stuff" that I've been thinking about making (and sounds REALLY good about now, and I'm starting to get really hungry!!!) Where are you going to find that in my "mind"? In some Interface? The neural activity in my brain NEVER stops, it is always reacting to every stimuli I am currently subjected to (Lions game in the background, Hunger Instinct demanding action, memories of prior omelettes I've made and, current available omelette ingredients, and finishing my project of eBay baseball cards I want to bid on tonight). And all I did was "decide" to NOT stand up, but to wait instead. How are you going to find an "Interface" amongst all that activity. Neurons firing everywhere and you want to identify the specific neurons that said to my motor functions; "WAIT". AND... the neural patterns firing for me for this specific stimuli and command instruction are DIFFERENT for EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING on this planet. Your "Interface" is simply one set of firing neurons in my brain, amongst many thousands, sending instructions to my lazy ass to NOT STAND UP. Your search for an Interface is IMPOSSIBLE in other words. You are chasing a needle in 8 billion haystacks, and that needle changes shape and appearance in EACH and EVERY single one of those 8 billion haystacks. And you are searching for an Interface that meets your definition of a separate "Mind" that has an "Interface" connection to our "Biochemical" brain. I am saying that there is no such thing. There is no interface because our "mind" IS the biochemical processes/ memory patterns of our brain and therefore does not NEED an interface. Just my, ummmm... 2 cents.

At face value, yes. But I made a point earlier in the off-season, and I will repeat it here: I am under the belief that the marketplace, the "Demand" for starting pitchers, this offseason, might distort the value of someone like Mize or Manning. If the stress of building a rotation pushes another team to take chances, it could, "demand-wise", push the trade value higher than what we normally think it would be. They are still young, controllable, have "live" arms, and some organization out there believes they can "maximize" value out of one of these guys. If they offer an overpay (in terms of minor league prospects) due to the Demand Marketplace getting out-of-whack, then maybe there is an opportunity to take advantage. If I am wrong on the level of demand... then there won't be any out-of-whack offers, and then yes, I agree it'd be selling low on Manning (and even Mize). But we'll soon see how crazy, or not, the trading season gets, with the Winter Meetings starting up this week.

Assassin's Creed with Michael Fassbender and Marion Cotillard... Exactly. There is even a critical point of relationship between 1522 and 2022 in that, as a Sin-Eater, you MUST be PAID for eating someone else's sins. And of course Munch's current major point of contention with the Tillman's is that they have NOT paid him.... "YOU OWE ME".

Wait... This IS a message board... Is it not?

Additional rhetorical question: Why is "god" allowed to have no beginning, or no end, but the Universe is NOT ALLOWED to have no beginning and end? Why can the universe not have no beginning or end, and instead "must" be created by "something"?

HUMAN (sorry about the all-CAP's again...) but it's actually in what you QUOTED (haha!) from me... "Human teleology" ... Is self-defined. Your DNA may no longer have any purpose... But YOU get to define the purpose of your own life in any manner that you so choose. If you looked at my earlier post of self-definition (a response to Lee on the "meaning of life") I gave several possible examples of self-definitions of meaning, or purpose, ... but any definition will do. "Create" your own, my friend. One last question: Wanna join Space-X and be the first pioneer to Mars? That has purpose...!

Well... we definitely are all morans.

Uncontrollable chaos agents.

And I'm actually fine with that. Yes, absolutely... I just wanted to point that out. Especially since there were, ummm, complaints about my "attitude" and yet... ridicule? The timing was perfect for me to just, you know, point that out... otherwise I would have just thrown a laugh emoji onto that...

By using a mocking, demeaning reference... Sorry, but that's the very definition (how about that for trying something different instead of all-CAP's...?) of ridicule: What does it mean to ridicule someone? make fun of When you ridicule someone, you mock or make fun of them. They become the object of your ridicule or mockery. The word ridicule is related to ridiculous. If you ridicule a friend, you try to make them look ridiculous.

Your prior post is ridicule. I don't equate ridicule of my statement as the same as believing I have above average intelligence. It was ridicule. Is this one of the attitudes you don't like, BTW...?

There's nothing wrong with self-confidence as an attitude.

Are you telling me that I'm stupid Lee?

But YOU'RE asking me to be banned for two weeks because you don't like my opinions, or rather, how I am stating them. That says a whole LOT about you Jim Cowan.

Being knowledgeable and self-assured is cause for a time out? YOU'RE the one calling me arrogant and dismissive (and Lee) because you don't like my opinions. YOU'RE the one PERSONALLY ATTACKING me.

Isn't that what YOU'RE saying? Tell me if I'm wrong... but it seems like you are demanding the basis for conscious volition and if I DON'T have that basis then you are saying consciousness is a self-delusion. As a statement of fact. As... YOUR statement. Or I'm misinterpreting your argument. Because I do NOT believe that consciousness is a self-delusion... and in fact I GAVE the BASIS for conscious volition, which is language. My basis for my consciousness is language, which allows me to DEFINE myself, in relation to a dog, as to my location within my house, as to the background sound of the Michigan game (and that I know they are playing Iowa and are leading 20-0...), etc., etc. I am CONSCIOUS of my desire to go to bed soon, biochemical process or otherwise, and I have the ability of language to DEFINE that, to be AWARE of that, and to make a conscious decision as to when I will turn off the TV and actually drag myself into bed. Do you disagree that language is the basis for consciousness? If not, what is your interpretation, or basis, for conscious volition?

Answer: My brain has the "ability" to INTERPRET data inputs. Yes, I get that it's only a biochemical reaction. And the reaction itself does not recognize me as a living, thinking being since, it's only a biochemical reaction. But through learning language, our brain interprets desires, feelings, dreams, thought, etc. An animal, for the most part, does not think, it only reacts out of instinct. Also biochemically driven. Hunger. Thirst. Find safety (don't get eaten). IE: Visually, biochemically, there is a computer screen in front of me. But how do I KNOW that there is a computer screen in front of me, (defined by the "Me" that is "Me")? Who says, or why, should I CALL it a computer screen? And not a cute little puppy dog winking it's lights and what appears to be some kind of alphabetical characters mysteriously popping up in its "eyes"? Same as in my defining my dreams, what I feel (Love, consternation, or otherwise), and my ability to make decisions. By understanding language, and how those dreams fit within that language, how the biochemical processes creating my "feelings" (defined biochemically in my brain under "language", that I have learned, and stored, biochemically, in my brain cells) as one feeling or another... And if I make a grilled cheese sandwich today instead of an egg salad sandwich, it's because of my decision to do so. It may be driven by biochemical instincts (hunger), but language allows my brain to "Talk to itself" (biochemical processes utilizing language), and, again, biochemically, and through the use of language my brain can "tell me" that "I'm getting really tired of egg salad... let's try a grilled cheese with some of that smoked ham and some tomato slices. Oh, and add a few of those fresh basil leaves you just got from the store yesterday...". Short story: Language opens up a vast ability to interpret biochemical reactions, without even realizing those reactions are there, in so many different ways. It's what makes us more "human" than any other ability. And what allows me to be "Me". And to dream. And to interpret those dreams. And to make my own decisions.

So grotesque....

I don't need caffeine, I'm already hyper. Hyper since I was 2 years old. Just something I have to live with. The all-caps aren't RANDOM, they are on specific words that I am emphasizing. Maybe that's just being hyper, maybe i did have a little bit of caffeine tonight... I do seem to be on speed dial tonight but... NO relation to Trump. Don't even try that ****!!!

No Kane this game... so, not yet.

So what you're telling me is that I MUST agree with you, if we have a difference of opinion, otherwise I am arrogant and dismissive? I MUST accept someone else's beliefs, NO MATTER WHAT, otherwise I am arrogant and dismissive? Because you understand that I am NOT going to change my opinion, no matter how upset you get. I am NOT going to acknowledge the existence of a god when I know there is none. I DO dismiss the existence of any god, as upset as you want to get about that. But let's flip that on its head. I have offered a hundred (just a WAG) different opinions than yours. Why I believe there is no god. And in YOUR arrogance and YOUR dismissiveness, you've dismissed EVERY thing I've said... with: But it's God. It's pretty comical how hypocritical believers are. They do EXACTLY what you accuse me of doing. Arrogantly, and dismissively. You have been dismissing my every post for the past 3 pages. My recommendation: Look in the mirror. But that's EXACTLY what you're proposing. That some magical creature called "god", a creature CREATED in the imagination of humankind, is the MAGICAL CREATOR of science.

I would not use narrow. More along the lines of black and white. This works, That doesn't. This is true. That is false. Teleology? Not a mystery to me. Every living being's purpose? To propagate its DNA. Human teleology? Self-defined, I've already stated as such above in a previous post. Origin and nature of will/volition? I don't believe in "fate". I don't believe in pre-determination. I'll throw a couple more back at ya': Origin of the ability to speak, origin of language, origin of dreams. These are all biochemical or physical abilities that evolved. Dreams? The development of language parallels the meaning/ interpretation we can give to our dreams. Free will? I make my own choices, every day. Is that too narrow, or more aptly black and white? I don't discount gray areas, although certain areas are a lot less gray than others. IE: Heliocentrism is black and white for me. I don't see any gray area in whether the sun revolves around Earth or the Earth revolves around the sun. I may have a very narrow viewpoint in heliocentrism but I don't see ANY problem with that narrow viewpoint. Other areas, as I've said, are a whole lot more gray and much more open to interpretation, opinions, beliefs, etc.... Teleology? Yeah, I get that there's a WHOLE lot more gray area in that then my simple black and white definition (you can call that flippant if you want, I get it...). I was just being... flippant? Narrow? Black and white? However, I DO recognize the grayness of teleology and the more expansive room for ideas....