10/25/2021 07:30 EDT Detroit Pistons @ Atlanta Hawks

[casimir]

  

Detroit Pistons (0-2) vs Atlanta Hawks (1-1)

[buddha]

jerami grant questionable with an elbow infection.

boy, the tank starts early this year!

[buddha]

currently down 23 in the 4th.

[Betrayer]

Rough start, but I think we all expected that.

The Good

Bey: He's really showing that he's a lot more than a 3 and D guy. I like what I'm seeing from him so far. He's been hitting the glass too, which this team needs. Yeah, his 3PT% is off so far, but I'm certain that will be fine.

Stewart: Averaging nearly a double-double along with 1.3 blocks. I like how he's progressing. Still not sure if his ceiling is high enough to be an all-star, but he looks like he'll at least be a solid player in the league.

The Bad

Frank Jackson: I have no idea what happened to Frank, but hopefully it's just a little slump. He looks lost out there and simply can't find the bucket.

Hami: He's got a long way to go. Struggling to see what aspect of his game improved in the offseason. His shot still looks really bad and he looks lost in the offense.

The Ugly

Casey: He's a development coach, so that's fine for now. But when this team is ready to take the next step he needs to go. His 2 unit lineup is just lazy - is he playing a video game? The offense is just terrible. Much like in Toronto, it's based on hero ball, but this team has no heroes.

Hayes: I'm trying to find an NBA player here, but not seeing one. I'm still struggling to see what skill is his "thing". Defense is solid, but he doesn't appear to dribble, pass, shoot, drive, or do anything else at a high level. I keep waiting to see flashes of something that can give me hope for development.

Corey Joseph: He's hot garbage. 16% shooting, 12% from three. Mostly looks for his own offense rather than assists. Maybe Saben Lee is hot garbage too, but there's a chance he's not. We already know what Corey Joseph is, so why bother playing him, especially when Lee has shown some progress in Summer League and Preseason?

[buddha]

diallo's shot is just ugly, arm is crooked out to the side.  it will never be consistent.  he's one of the only good nba athletes on the team, but his ceiling will forever be a poor man's tony allen.

i assume joseph and macgruder are budding nba locker room presence all stars.  

hayes has to do a lot of things, but job 1 is getting in the gym and getting stronger.  that just requires effort and a plan.  

cant really tell anything about this team until we see cade.  looks god awful right now, but maybe they can reach the dizzying heights of "just awful" that we saw last year?

btw, which rebuild style do you prefer: okc or det?  teat it all down and accumulate future assets and picks, or tear it all down and acquire middling players and spend draft capital to move them for other middling players?  they both seem to be in the same place right now.

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

diallo's shot is just ugly, arm is crooked out to the side.  it will never be consistent.  he's one of the only good nba athletes on the team, but his ceiling will forever be a poor man's tony allen.

i assume joseph and macgruder are budding nba locker room presence all stars.  

hayes has to do a lot of things, but job 1 is getting in the gym and getting stronger.  that just requires effort and a plan.  

cant really tell anything about this team until we see cade.  looks god awful right now, but maybe they can reach the dizzying heights of "just awful" that we saw last year?

btw, which rebuild style do you prefer: okc or det?  teat it all down and accumulate future assets and picks, or tear it all down and acquire middling players and spend draft capital to move them for other middling players?  they both seem to be in the same place right now.

I thought you built a team by accumulated good players until you had more good players than the other teams you have to play. With Cade they are at player one, and even that remains a maybe.

[Betrayer]

I like the OKC method. Lots and lots of draft picks. More draft picks means more potential to land a franchise altering star. When you have that star, the "restore" can actually start as you rebuild around him.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Betrayer said:

I like the OKC method. Lots and lots of draft picks. More draft picks means more potential to land a franchise altering star. When you have that star, the "restore" can actually start as you rebuild around him.

i do too, although i think they've taken it to an extreme.  but i prefer it to what weaver did.  

getting bey and stewart as solid players is good, but what else?  paying grant and plumlee rather than maximizing cap space to take other people's problems and get assets attached?

people make a big deal about "finding" and paying grant was such a great move.  was it?  in the long term what has grant provided?  a good player on the second worst team in the league last season.  a good player on what looks like a bottom 5 team this year.  what is he providing to the team other than being a decent second or third option on a team that has no first option?  if were tanking he is a hindrance, if were not tanking then what are we doing?

again, this is all moot until we can see cade play, but i dont think weaver is maximizing this team's assets in the best fashion that benefits the team in the long term.  the first thing he should be doing is clearing everything off the books, and getting as much value for grant as he can.  instead, he seems intent to keep grant and sit him half the season in order to tank anyway.  seems like a waste of an asset to me, just like the salary cap stretches are wastes of assets.

[buddha]

and that's not even mentioning that we had to attach an asset to move plumlee's contract the year after he signed him.  why?  because we had to put luka garza on the team full time rather than let plumlee come off the bench?  had to give up a second for that?  had to re-sign corey joseph?  macgruder?  for what?  all that veteran presence in guys who cant play just to tank anyway?

[buddha]

had to attach four seconds to move luke?  to a team that then signed him to a big extension?  they obviously saw some value in him and still made you attach assets to move him.  got a shit second round pick for derrick rose from the one team you knew would be desperate to want him (thibs' bulls fetish)?  could only recoup meaningless late second round picks from brooklyn and gave up a former first rounder to take deandre jordan's albatross deal when almost no one else had space to take him?  i mean, how bad are you at negotiating?

 

[RandyMarsh]

Unless nobody was interested they should've traded Grant at the deadline. He'd be a fine piece for a contending team but doesn't have a ton of value for us at the moment. 

[buddha]

pistons are now the only winless team in the nba.

[casimir]

6 hours ago, buddha said:

pistons are now the only winless team in the nba.

Winless but winning?

[Betrayer]

Best part of it is who those bad teams are beating. Cavs beat the Clippers and OKC beat the Lakers after LA had a big lead.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Betrayer

[NYLion]

21 hours ago, buddha said:

had to attach four seconds to move luke?  to a team that then signed him to a big extension?  they obviously saw some value in him and still made you attach assets to move him.  got a shit second round pick for derrick rose from the one team you knew would be desperate to want him (thibs' bulls fetish)?  could only recoup meaningless late second round picks from brooklyn and gave up a former first rounder to take deandre jordan's albatross deal when almost no one else had space to take him?  i mean, how bad are you at negotiating?

 

So let me try to understand. Weaver is an idiot for giving away garbage 2nds but is also an idiot for taking on garbage 2nds. They got Bey from the Kennard trade and in the process, didn't overpay Kennard. The 2nds are inconsequential. Drafted a top 10 level talent who can be a core player going forward is much better than holding on to some 2nd round picks so I don't see why this trade is getting criticized.

The Plumlee trade was odd but he thought Olynyk would be an upgrade so time will tell on that front.

I don't know, I think you're making a big deal of trades that will have little bearing on their future. I don't like the stretches, not a fan of the dead money but a lot of it is during a time when they aren't competing anyway and they still have enough cap space to make moves so it's not crippling.

My biggest issue with Weaver thus far is not weaponizing the cap space to add 1sts by taking on bad contracts like what OKC did with Favors. He had the right idea with the Jordan trade but pretty lackluster execution by only getting deep in the future 2nds.

[buddha]

15 minutes ago, NYLion said:

So let me try to understand. Weaver is an idiot for giving away garbage 2nds but is also an idiot for taking on garbage 2nds. They got Bey from the Kennard trade and in the process, didn't overpay Kennard. The 2nds are inconsequential. Drafted a top 10 level talent who can be a core player going forward is much better than holding on to some 2nd round picks so I don't see why this trade is getting criticized.

The Plumlee trade was odd but he thought Olynyk would be an upgrade so time will tell on that front.

I don't know, I think you're making a big deal of trades that will have little bearing on their future. I don't like the stretches, not a fan of the dead money but a lot of it is during a time when they aren't competing anyway and they still have enough cap space to make moves so it's not crippling.

My biggest issue with Weaver thus far is not weaponizing the cap space to add 1sts by taking on bad contracts like what OKC did with Favors. He had the right idea with the Jordan trade but pretty lackluster execution by only getting deep in the future 2nds.

you gave up decent seconds in the luke trade (in order to get rid of an asset) and you got back garbage seconds (and gave up a former first round pick) to take on jordan's contract.

i dont see why you think those arent bad deals.

and honestly, it seems like you agree with me for the most part.

[NYLion]

32 minutes ago, buddha said:

you gave up decent seconds in the luke trade (in order to get rid of an asset) and you got back garbage seconds (and gave up a former first round pick) to take on jordan's contract.

i dont see why you think those arent bad deals.

and honestly, it seems like you agree with me for the most part.

They got a 1st back in the Kennard trade which turned into Bey. No Kennard trade, No Bey. Who gives a hoot about the 2nds, they drafted a core player with the return.

Kennard wasn't an "asset", he was an oft injured player who was about to get paid big bucks. The impending contract is what made him a negative asset but looking at the picks in isolation, would you rather have the four 2nds or Bey? I know who I'd pick. Not a big fan of the Jordan deal but it's really inconsequential in the grand scheme. It was basically designed to recoup some 2nds.

I'm not sure we complete agree though. You seem to think Weaver is doing a bad job (unless I'm misinterpreting your position) and while I'm far from crowning him at this point, I'm in wait and see mode because that's all you can do in a rebuild. On the surface, there's been some good (we disagree on Bey being a good thing) and bad with him but until we see what this young core is made of, it's an incomplete right now.

Edited October 28, 2021 by NYLion

[buddha]

53 minutes ago, NYLion said:

They got a 1st back in the Kennard trade which turned into Bey. No Kennard trade, No Bey. Who gives a hoot about the 2nds, they drafted a core player with the return.

Kennard wasn't an "asset", he was an oft injured player who was about to get paid big bucks. The impending contract is what made him a negative asset but looking at the picks in isolation, would you rather have the four 2nds or Bey? I know who I'd pick. Not a big fan of the Jordan deal but it's really inconsequential in the grand scheme. It was basically designed to recoup some 2nds.

I'm not sure we complete agree though. You seem to think Weaver is doing a bad job (unless I'm misinterpreting your position) and while I'm far from crowning him at this point, I'm in wait and see mode because that's all you can do in a rebuild. On the surface, there's been some good (we disagree on Bey being a good thing) and bad with him but until we see what this young core is made of, it's an incomplete right now.

i had forgotten about the first for kennard, so youre right about that.

i dont think weaver has done a great job, but i think its too early to tell if my feelings are right or not.  i dont think he's used the team's assets in the most productive way possible.

i also realize its hard to build a basketball team and that not every asset i want to be available is actually available.

i'm in a wait and see mode (and really, we need to see cade), but i'm skeptical.  let's see what they look like with cade.  i suspect the pistons are going to be in line for another top 3 or 4 pick next year too.

[Betrayer]

I'm hot and cold on Weaver at this point. Certainly I'd like more draft picks and I'd also like to see him handle his assets a little better. Then again, I love the fact that he had the guts to change over the entire team in a year and truly commit to the rebuild with some very solid moves along the way.

In the end, we need to wait and see.

[NYLion]

50 minutes ago, buddha said:

i had forgotten about the first for kennard, so youre right about that.

i dont think weaver has done a great job, but i think its too early to tell if my feelings are right or not.  i dont think he's used the team's assets in the most productive way possible.

i also realize its hard to build a basketball team and that not every asset i want to be available is actually available.

i'm in a wait and see mode (and really, we need to see cade), but i'm skeptical.  let's see what they look like with cade.  i suspect the pistons are going to be in line for another top 3 or 4 pick next year too.

Can't disagree with any of that and I think it's better in the long run if they get another top 5 pick in this draft because the talent base, while much improved the last 2 years, still needs another big addition (preferably a more athletic player) to really think about competing next season and beyond.