Will Tigers Pony up for Skubal

[Sports_Freak]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

If this is true, then it is also true that if it weren't for Randy Smith, the Tigers would not have won the 2006 American League pennant.

If it were up to Harris, we would have a team full of Nick Maton and Charlie Morton type players...lmao

[Tiger337]

28 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Do you know this? Or are you just saying?

I know this by seeing that the manager and almost all the key players on the 2006 roster were acquired by Dombrowski.   Dombrowski tore the team apart and built a winner in 4 years.  

Edited 2 hours ago by Tiger337

[Tiger337]

9 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

If it were up to Harris, we would have a team full of Nick Maton and Charlie Morton type players...lmao

I don't agree with that at all.  He'd like to have a great team and he may get one eventually. I'm just saying that his impact on the 2024-2025 is being overstated.  

[1984Echoes]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

If this is true, then it is also true that if it weren't for Randy Smith, the Tigers would not have won the 2006 American League pennant.

Receipts please.

Which exact Randy Smith players were a component of the 2006 team?

[theroundsquare]

wasn't inge a high draft pick of the randy smith regime?

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't agree with that at all.  He'd like to have a great team and he may get one eventually. I'm just saying that his impact on the 2024-2025 is being overstated.  

Agree with this.

This is still not yet Harris's team. A small part yes, but mostly Hinch/ Fetter and Avila's team.

But I anticipate some swift turnover this year and over the next few years that shift it sharply towards being a Harris team.

If Skubal isn't signed for us, after the 2026 season, then that's a big change pending...

Who will survive from Avila's regime? Who of his will be here in 2028/29/30?

Just on a guess: I would start with Dingler and Keith. Jackson Jobe. Troy Melton. 

Gone soon (after 2026) on a guess: Jake Rogers, Mize, Skubal.

Javier Baez gone after next year (2027).

I don't want to hazard a guess on how much longer key Avila players last under Harris... they all have their warts. And that goes for Mize, Tork, Kerry Carpenter, and even Riley Greene. Easily Parker Meadows. They'll need to change their ways or make some key improvements to stick long-term... IMO. Otherwise, Harris is going to have an itch to upgrade as soon as he can. I think first option is for those guys to make improvements. But that's not a guaranteed thing, so...

Maybe a few pitchers can stick for a while as long as they are effective (and inexpensive)... Like Will Vest, if he can make it that far... Can SGL get back on track after all the injuries? Can Reese Olson stay healthy? I'm not certain if Harris holds on to Mize. 50/50? Can Brant Hurter be effective for a few more years? Ty Madden? He needs to show something in MLB that we haven't seen yet... Can Dylan Smith stick as a reliever?

International Avila signees (not much here): Josue Briceno may have a chance. How long will Wenceel last under Harris/Hinch? Can the "light bulb" turn on for Roberto Campos or Cristian Santana (looking HIGHLY doubtful...).

Dark Horse candidate: Jake Miller maybe? Trei Cruz as a utility guy...?

 

Not much there. Not zero... but not much staying power there either. Too many flaws. That, if they can be fixed, will give just a little more staying power (Greene/ Tork/ Mize at the top of that list IMO)...

But... we'll see.

Harris is going to have the opportunity of a LOT of turnover the next few years...

Edited 1 hour ago by 1984Echoes

[1984Echoes]

16 minutes ago, theroundsquare said:

wasn't inge a high draft pick of the randy smith regime?

Is that it?

I'm being lazy here...

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I know this by seeing that the manager and almost all the key players on the 2006 roster were acquired by Dombrowski.   Dombrowski tore the team apart and built a winner in 4 years.  

I've been told that key players on the 2024-25 Tigers were acquired by Al Avila and that's the reason we won, not anythign that Scott Harris did. But several key players on the 2006 Tigers were acquired by Randy Smith: Chris Shelton, Brandon Inge, Craig Monroe, Omar Infante, Jeremy Bonderman, Fernando Rodney, Jamie Walker, Mike Maroth, among others. If Avila gets credit for the 2024-25 Tigers being the difference between being in the playoffs versus out because the players were originally acquired by him, why shouldn't Randy Smith get similar credit for players he staffed the 2006 Tigers with?

I've also been told that because Al Avila hired Ryan Garko as VP of Player Development, he should get the credit for the way Garko has developed the players under Harris. The director of scouting under Dave Dombrowski was Greg Smith, who oversaw drafting or signing Curits Granderson, Justin Verlander, Joel Zumaya, and Wil Ledezma. Greg Smith was hired for the role by Randy Smith in 1997. If Avila gets the credit for the way the players developed under Ryan Garko because Avila hired him, why shouldn't Randy Smith get the credit for the draft picks Greg Smith picked because Randy hired him?

If Al Avila gets credit for the players and their development under Harris, then Randy Smith gets credit for the players and their acquisition under Dombrowski. Right?

See how the logic goes?

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I know this by seeing that the manager and almost all the key players on the 2006 roster were acquired by Dombrowski.   Dombrowski tore the team apart and built a winner in 4 years.  

I want to be clear here: I don't really believe Randy Smith deserves credit for 2006 Tigers the way it's been laid out above. That was Dave Dombrowski's team, an entirely different philosophy had been implemented, and the Tigers turned from being a loser to being a winner as a result—just like this is Scott Harris's team with an entirely different philosophy implemented, and the Tigers turning from being a loser to being a winner as a result. 

Just as Dombrowski surveyed the landscape when he came in and kept the personnel Randy Smith acquired who he believed could still contribute to a winning Tigers team, Harris did the exact same thing, keeping the personnel he believes can contribute to a winning Tigers team during this particular window of time (although I'm pretty sure a few of those guys are going to be booted within a couple years as better options come online).

That's why I say that to the degree Al Avila gets credit for the winning Tigers of 2024-25, Randy Smith gets credit for the winning Tigers of 2006 which, in my view, is nearly none. Continuing to insist that Al Avila deserves the lion's share of credit for the current team, apparently because I've been insisting he doesn't, is simply contrarian nonsense.

[Tiger337]

18 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Is that it?

I'm being lazy here...

Looking at the top 12 WAR players, Inge is the only one acquired by Randy Smith.  

[Tiger337]

28 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That's why I say that to the degree Al Avila gets credit for the winning Tigers of 2024-25, Randy Smith gets credit for the winning Tigers of 2006 which, in my view, is nearly none. Continuing to insist that Al Avila deserves the lion's share of credit for the current team, apparently because I've been insisting he doesn't, is simply contrarian nonsense.

Smith objectively had minimal impact on the 2006 Tigers unless you think Inge was the heart and soul of the team.  There is really no case you can make that the 2006 team was Smith's team. There is no grey area.    There is plenty of grey area regarding Avila versus Harris.  Avila provided the manager, the players and the pitching coach.  Harris added hardly anything in terms of new players, so this makes the comparison less clear cut than Dombrowski/ Smith.  Your argument is all based on intangibles - development and culture - which are probably somewhat true but the extent is questionable and impossible to prove.  

My argument here is that if Harris acquired the Randy Smith team and made the same level of contribution he had made to this team, they would not have made the playoffs.  

Edited 29 minutes ago by Tiger337