Detroit Lions: 2025

[holygoat]

6 hours ago, Hongbit said:

All those teams are out of it and sold other players.   Not a stretch to assume a good offer gets it done.   None of these guys were worth a late first but we had other picks that could’ve got it done.   

We did? Teams rarely move even merely decent OL-men at the deadline, let alone good to great ones. So what if the cost started with out 1st rounder for one of those guys? Do you still make the trade, or nah? 

[Hongbit]

10 hours ago, holygoat said:

We did? Teams rarely move even merely decent OL-men at the deadline, let alone good to great ones. So what if the cost started with out 1st rounder for one of those guys? Do you still make the trade, or nah? 

Teams rarely made trades during the season.  It’s only a recent phenomena where a bevy of trades happen in year. 

I wouldn’t have traded a first for any interior lineman.  Maybe not as much as most of the league, first round picks still have lots of value for the Lions.   You don’t just give them away for a player that’s worth a 3rd or 4th.  Thats not smart business for the future.  

[Mr.TaterSalad]

10 hours ago, holygoat said:

We did? Teams rarely move even merely decent OL-men at the deadline, let alone good to great ones. So what if the cost started with out 1st rounder for one of those guys? Do you still make the trade, or nah? 

When the Vikings traded with the Jaguars last year at the deadline for starting LT Cam Robinson I believe it only cost them a 4th round pick. And the 4th round pick was conditional on playing time, as it was originally slated to be a 5th, depending on how much Robinson played.

[Jason_R]

Just because a guy like Cam Robinson is available one year doesn’t mean another guy like him is going to be available every year.

Also, Jax seems to have wanted to get rid of him after a knee injury. In the course of the last year he has played for them, Minnesota, Houston, and Cleveland. Is this really the kind of big move we are blaming Holmes for not making?

[Dan Gilmore]

How much different is it in calling Cam Robinson a starting LT than calling Skipper a starting LT? Neither one would hold such a position for long if not for being emergency fill-in. Robinson was probably better than Skipper, but not dramatically so. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

29 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

Just because a guy like Cam Robinson is available one year doesn’t mean another guy like him is going to be available every year.

Also, Jax seems to have wanted to get rid of him after a knee injury. In the course of the last year he has played for them, Minnesota, Houston, and Cleveland. Is this really the kind of big move we are blaming Holmes for not making?

The question was asked has a starting-caliber offensive lineman ever been traded at the deadline. I responded to the question with two recent examples, Cam Robinson and Ezra Cleveland. According to Football reference Robinson was indeed a starting LT having started 17 games in the 2024 season between Jacksonville and Minnesota. Ezra Cleveland started 11 games between Jacksonville and Minnesota in the 2023 season.

[holygoat]

2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Just because a guy like Cam Robinson is available one year doesn’t mean another guy like him is going to be available every year.

Also, Jax seems to have wanted to get rid of him after a knee injury. In the course of the last year he has played for them, Minnesota, Houston, and Cleveland. Is this really the kind of big move we are blaming Holmes for not making?

Yes. Yes it is.

[Hongbit]

2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Is this really the kind of big move we are blaming Holmes for not making?

I’m not blaming Holmes for not making a move but I don’t think he deserves any praise for not making any.    

He has his reasons and they very well may be justified but it’s a bottom line job,  and the bottom line is that he chose to not improve this team.

 

[HugoD]

19 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

I’m not blaming Holmes for not making a move but I don’t think he deserves any praise for not making any.    

He has his reasons and they very well may be justified but it’s a bottom line job,  and the bottom line is that he chose to not improve this team.

 

Maybe, but "improvement" can be in the eye of the beholder.  Granted, if they could acquire someone who would objectively upgrade a position of need in exchange for a future consideration (draft pick), the calculus becomes:

To what extent will the reasonably expected improvement change the end results for this year, and what's that worth?

I don't mean to state the obvious, but every FO has (or should have) their own way to measure this.   Obviously, their job security depends on it.   I for one enjoy seeing action at trade deadline and in offseason, but that's because it has entertainment value.   I don't have anything important riding on it (except for my mental health during season).

[Jason_R]

37 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

I’m not blaming Holmes for not making a move but I don’t think he deserves any praise for not making any.    

He has his reasons and they very well may be justified but it’s a bottom line job,  and the bottom line is that he chose to not improve this team.

 

“He chose not to improve this team.” 😂

I love it when fans get passive aggressive with the GM like an angry wife. “Oh, so I guess you think this roster has no holes. You must not care about winning cause if you did you would have done something.” 

The only thing that might be considered an urgent need is a replacement for Mahogany, and it wasn’t a need until 48 hours before the deadline. Do you give up a sixth round pick for a guy another team thinks is no better than its sixth-best big, to get a short-term replacement for a guy who will be back this year, and when you already have Miles Frazier scheduled to come back?

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Again, we don't know what was or wasn't done behind the scenes. So it isn't entirely fair to say Holmes did nothing because maybe he did make calls about getting a replacement for Mahogany. Maybe he didn't. Until we get a reliable report that says one way or the other, we don't know. But if we do find out that Holmes wasn't making call and looking to upgrade the Guard position due to Mahogany's injury and was instead relying on a next man up mentality in rookie Miles Fraizer, who is just coming back from an injury, I think that is a mistake.

Neither Hongbit or myself have been roasting Holmes over this as if it were some mortal sin not to make a trade. I've roasted GMs plenty of times before (see Ken Holland circa 2013-2019). This is not that. I just simply wanted an insurance move to be made, to ensure we protect our QB, boost our running game, and open up our play action attack with the right people in the lineup. I hope Miles Fraizer or whoever they pull off the depth chart is that guy.

[Hongbit]

4 hours ago, Jason_R said:

“He chose not to improve this team.” 😂

I love it when fans get passive aggressive with the GM like an angry wife. “Oh, so I guess you think this roster has no holes. You must not care about winning cause if you did you would have done something.” 

The only thing that might be considered an urgent need is a replacement for Mahogany, and it wasn’t a need until 48 hours before the deadline. Do you give up a sixth round pick for a guy another team thinks is no better than its sixth-best big, to get a short-term replacement for a guy who will be back this year, and when you already have Miles Frazier scheduled to come back?

I disagree with pretty much all of this but that’s ok. It’s your opinion and it’s not wrong but a different way of looking at the same thing.

I don’t for one second question Brad’s desire to win and to win now.    I have a little different opinion on his decision to roll with what they have as the choice to improve.  I don’t think it’s improving.   

Miles Frazier has not done anything since being drafted.  The 3 day Rookie minicamp is all that he’s done.  He’s a green as they come.  I’m not sure you can count on him to even be on an active gameday 48, much less actually play.   That seems like a massive reach.   We will see.  

As I said earlier,  it’s very possible they don’t need to improve and what they have is good enough.     I think it could be, assuming nobody else gets injured on OL or god forbid #97 is unable to go for any period of time.    We will see.

 Maybe it’s because of the market but he’s left the team without any safety nets and they are very vulnerable at a few key positions.   It may turn out to be a calculated risk that turns out perfectly but end of the day it’s his call and his ass on the line.  We will see.
 

Edited Thursday at 11:12 PM by Hongbit

[sagnam]

4 hours ago, Hongbit said:

I disagree with pretty much all of this but that’s ok. It’s your opinion and it’s not wrong but a different way of looking at the same thing.

I don’t for one second question Brad’s desire to win and to win now.    I have a little different opinion on his decision to roll with what they have as the choice to improve.  I don’t think it’s improving.   

Miles Frazier has not done anything since being drafted.  The 3 day Rookie minicamp is all that he’s done.  He’s a green as they come.  I’m not sure you can count on him to even be on an active gameday 48, much less actually play.   That seems like a massive reach.   We will see.  

As I said earlier,  it’s very possible they don’t need to improve and what they have is good enough.     I think it could be, assuming nobody else gets injured on OL or god forbid #97 is unable to go for any period of time.    We will see.

 Maybe it’s because of the market but he’s left the team without any safety nets and they are very vulnerable at a few key positions.   It may turn out to be a calculated risk that turns out perfectly but end of the day it’s his call and his ass on the line.  We will see.
 

I feel like you are being very reasonable and you are getting met with logical fallacies.

I agree with you. We don’t know what conversations were had with other teams, who was available and for what price. We also don’t know what the situation internally looks like for the player’s already on the team.

None of that negates what you are saying. The team stood pat. Everything that happens from here out this season needs to be framed from that decision.

We know that almost any player can be had for the right price, with the obvious exceptions (Mahomes, Allen, etc). We aren’t talking about the proverbial untouchables. We are talking about the middling players that other teams can replace and that are an upgrade for the Lions. They exists. Whatever the price, if discussed at all, choosing not to pay it should have an effect on our perception of the season, and the GM in particular.
 

Winning it all now or in the near future would obviously confirm his decision making process and put an end to this discussion. That really should go without saying. Anything less should be questioned. Not questioned in the sense of replacing anyone. The team can be wildly successful and still not win it all. Questioned in the hopes that, short of a championship, they can shift the philosophy.  While sacrificing the current season’s best possible chance of success in favor of retaining the chance of future success has worked in filling the roster with talent, it hasn’t led to the ultimate goal. It hasn’t even gotten them to the Super Bowl.

Edited yesterday at 04:06 AM by sagnam

[Jason_R]

9 hours ago, sagnam said:

I feel like you are being very reasonable and you are getting met with logical fallacies.

I agree with you. We don’t know what conversations were had with other teams, who was available and for what price. We also don’t know what the situation internally looks like for the player’s already on the team.

None of that negates what you are saying. The team stood pat. Everything that happens from here out this season needs to be framed from that decision.

We know that almost any player can be had for the right price, with the obvious exceptions (Mahomes, Allen, etc). We aren’t talking about the proverbial untouchables. We are talking about the middling players that other teams can replace and that are an upgrade for the Lions. They exists. Whatever the price, if discussed at all, choosing not to pay it should have an effect on our perception of the season, and the GM in particular.
 

Winning it all now or in the near future would obviously confirm his decision making process and put an end to this discussion. That really should go without saying. Anything less should be questioned. Not questioned in the sense of replacing anyone. The team can be wildly successful and still not win it all. Questioned in the hopes that, short of a championship, they can shift the philosophy.  While sacrificing the current season’s best possible chance of success in favor of retaining the chance of future success has worked in filling the roster with talent, it hasn’t led to the ultimate goal. It hasn’t even gotten them to the Super Bowl.

You talk about logical fallacies then say "...almost any player can be had for the right price... the middling players that other teams can replace and that are an upgrade for the Lions." 

With the trade deadline being halfway through the season and especially with the extra wild card team, very few teams were obviously out of playoff contention. And even those that are out of playoff contention are not necessarily in fire sale mode. GMs know they have to field a roster next year, and, in fact, the rest of this year. So while, in the very abstract, one GM could pry away a player another GM was not actively shopping by making a ridiculous offer, that strategy is not going to work long-term.

Also, maybe five years ago or more, a middling player on another team might have been an upgrade for the Lions, but this roster is now one of the best in the NFL. How many middling players on the Jets, Titans, Raiders -- players they believe they can field a team without -- would actually be an upgrade for the Lions? I don't think there are as many as you think there are.

The people complaining now that Holmes did not make a trade at the deadline are the same people complaining that he didn't re-sign Zadarius Smith in the offseason. Hmmm... maybe he knows things we don't.

Holmes does have a track record of reaching with those third-round picks. It is hard to see the investments in players like Martin and Hooker not pay off, and maybe if he had been more conservative there he could have been more aggressive at the trade deadline. But this is the best Lions team we have ever seen and they are a legitimate Super Bowl contender if they can dial in their protection and play calling. 

[Motown Bombers]

I just wanted to pop in and say Cam Robinson sucks and wouldn’t be an improvement over Skipper. Trading for a player of Robinson’s caliber would just be making a trade for the sake of making a trade. 

[Hongbit]

Not a single person in this thread has ever suggested the Lions trade for Cam Robinson.  

[Mr.TaterSalad]

15 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Not a single person in this thread has ever suggested the Lions trade for Cam Robinson.  

Nope. Cam Robinson was only brought up as an example of a starting offensive lineman who was traded at the deadline. Words being put in people's mouth that weren't said. Joel Bitonio, Kevin Zietler, Wyatt Teller all suggested, but not Robinson. 

[4hzglory]

14 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Not a single person in this thread has ever suggested the Lions trade for Cam Robinson.  

He was used as an example of a starting tackle who was traded in recent years.  And yes he was a starter, but as MB said, he isn't an upgrade over Skipper.  And they clearly think who they already have as backups and on the PS are equal or better than the options that were out there.  Both on the OLine and DLine.  And after the Tampa game, they clearly felt like that with the DB's.  I believe if they saw a clear upgrade over what they had, they would have made a trade.  But if they're just trading a 6th round pick to get a player equal or worse in their minds than the backups they have, why would they do that?  They got their starting guard (who just got hurt) in the 6th (not to mention a guard they really like in Frazier who Holmes said he would have taken in the 3rd if they didn't trade up to get Teslaa.)

[4hzglory]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Nope. Cam Robinson was only brought up as an example of a starting offensive lineman who was traded at the deadline. Words being put in people's mouth that weren't said. Joel Bitonio, Kevin Zietler, Wyatt Teller all suggested, but not Robinson. 

If they were even truly available, Holmes clearly felt they weren't upgrades over what they already have or in Zitler's case, wasn't a fit as he only plays RG and they aren't going to move Ratledge this year.

[Motown Bombers]

52 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Not a single person in this thread has ever suggested the Lions trade for Cam Robinson.  

I didn’t suggest trading for Robinson. His name was thrown out there as a player who was traded and I said a player of his caliber. 

[Jason_R]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

I just wanted to pop in and say Cam Robinson sucks and wouldn’t be an improvement over Skipper. Trading for a player of Robinson’s caliber would just be making a trade for the sake of making a trade. 

I don’t take MB as saying that anyone was arguing that Brad should trade for Cam Robinson.  I take him as using Cam Robinson as an example, just like everyone else was, of the kind of player that one team would find expendable at the trade deadline but another team might need. 

Last year, given Minnesota’s circumstances where Darrisaw was out for the year, it may have made sense for them to trade for Robinson. It is notable that Robinson was only made available by Jax because he had warts as a player, which are evident in the fact that he has been on four teams in the past year. 

It is easy to say that Brad could have had almost any player if he just cared enough about the roster, but the fact is players don’t get moved unless there is a really good reason. Maybe we think they should feel like they were in as much of a crisis as Minnesota was in last year, but they don’t. Maybe they are wrong but we will see. 

[Motown Bombers]

37 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Nope. Cam Robinson was only brought up as an example of a starting offensive lineman who was traded at the deadline. Words being put in people's mouth that weren't said. Joel Bitonio, Kevin Zietler, Wyatt Teller all suggested, but not Robinson. 

And none of those players were actually traded. 

[Motown Bombers]

 

[Hongbit]

This is an article on the Eagles approach to the deadline.  These teams are very similar in both talent and current goals.  The approach taken at the deadline by their GM was very different.   Definitely worth a read to understand the thinking behind a team that took another route than Brad.  

It also goes into the tactic of being able to acquire players without actually losing any draft capital.  Very shrewd way of working the deadline.    
 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/howardmegdal/2025/11/06/how-philadelphia-eagles-howie-roseman-won-the-nfl-trade-deadline/

Edited 18 hours ago by Hongbit

[HugoD]

14 hours ago, sagnam said:

I feel like you are being very reasonable and you are getting met with logical fallacies.

I agree with you. We don’t know what conversations were had with other teams, who was available and for what price. We also don’t know what the situation internally looks like for the player’s already on the team.

None of that negates what you are saying. The team stood pat. Everything that happens from here out this season needs to be framed from that decision.

We know that almost any player can be had for the right price, with the obvious exceptions (Mahomes, Allen, etc). We aren’t talking about the proverbial untouchables. We are talking about the middling players that other teams can replace and that are an upgrade for the Lions. They exists. Whatever the price, if discussed at all, choosing not to pay it should have an effect on our perception of the season, and the GM in particular.
 

Winning it all now or in the near future would obviously confirm his decision making process and put an end to this discussion. That really should go without saying. Anything less should be questioned. Not questioned in the sense of replacing anyone. The team can be wildly successful and still not win it all. Questioned in the hopes that, short of a championship, they can shift the philosophy.  While sacrificing the current season’s best possible chance of success in favor of retaining the chance of future success has worked in filling the roster with talent, it hasn’t led to the ultimate goal. It hasn’t even gotten them to the Super Bowl.

Yeah, but even not winning it all can't be tied to the level of action or inaction at the trade deadline.  It's unprovable that picking up this player or that, regardless the cost, would have improved  - or hurt - the final results.

This stuff is fun to speculate about, and it's what this forum is all about, but we really never know the answers to the what ifs.