Red Wings November 2025 Game Threads

[1984Echoes]

Call up Wallinder.

Send Hamonic down and call up Holl.

1st pair Chiarot-Seider

2nd pair Johansson-ASP

3rd pair Wallinder-Holl

And if they REALLY wanted to get crazy, throw Wallinder right out into the top pair with Mo and tell him he has to play defense 1st.

Wallinder-Seider

Chiarot-ASP

Johansson-Holl.

I like that even better simply because Chiarot is not on the top pair. Heck, let's just see what happens...

[slothfacekilla]

We're in a dark place when we're pining for Justin Holl in the lineup

[lordstanley]

1-goal game, 8 minutes to go. 

[JackMorrisStache]

Not sure how that cheap shot on Raymond was not called. These NHL refs may be the Lions-Giants game refs on skates.

Edited 16 hours ago by JackMorrisStache

[lordstanley]

Wings dominated the last few minutes, gave it a good shot but fall 4-3 in Jersey. 

[JackMorrisStache]

Liked the fight in the boys tonight. Just not their night. Devils a bunch of cheap shot artists. Devils 71 needs to lose a couple teeth next time we see these girls.

[buddha]

59 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Call up Wallinder.

Send Hamonic down and call up Holl.

1st pair Chiarot-Seider

2nd pair Johansson-ASP

3rd pair Wallinder-Holl

And if they REALLY wanted to get crazy, throw Wallinder right out into the top pair with Mo and tell him he has to play defense 1st.

Wallinder-Seider

Chiarot-ASP

Johansson-Holl.

I like that even better simply because Chiarot is not on the top pair. Heck, let's just see what happens...

they called up gustaffson instead of wallinder or tuomisto.  what do you think that means for them?  why didnt they call them up?

[1984Echoes]

Knee-jerk conservatism rather than calculated risk-taking.

IMO.

[buddha]

7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Knee-jerk conservatism rather than calculated risk-taking.

IMO.

they arent good enough.

if they were going to be good enough, they'd be up already.  wallinder still has a tiny window to prove himself.

[1984Echoes]

Is ASP good enough?

Your opinion, please.

[1984Echoes]

Or for that matter, is Hamonic?

[gehringer_2]

didn't see this one but 4 goals on 23 shots? Was Talbot off his feed or just a high ratio of high quality chances for the Devils?

[buddha]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Or for that matter, is Hamonic?

he's not.  but why is he here over them?  because theyre teh stupidest?

i'd rather see wallinder too.  the fact that we are seeing mbn, finnie, and asp but NOT wallinder and/or tuomisto tells me something.

maybe they think they can handle one rookie making a ton of mistakes (and asp is making a ton of mistakes) but not more than one?

more likely is that tuomisto is too slow to be an nhl player and wallinder is still too passive and must get stronger and more aggressive.

i do think buium was going to be here until he got hurt.

[1984Echoes]

14 hours ago, slothfacekilla said:

We're in a dark place when we're pining for Justin Holl in the lineup

I'm sorry... but I disagree with this sentiment.

Holl, 2019-22: +58 +/- (4 years, all with Toronto = +14.5 average)

Detroit 2023: +8 in 38 games (+16 pace)

Detroit 2024: -7 in 73 games. Not good, but not atrocious either. 33 years old. Maybe a bad year. Maybe age.

But he's been a good defensive defenseman for a long time, including for Detroit in 2023.

Seems like a good (vet, experience) 3rd pairing guy...

to me.

 

Hamonic, 2021-24: -25 +/- (4 years = -6 average), 35 years old. This year: -9 in 14 games.

Ouch. Atrocious!

Chiarot, 2020-24: -79 +/- (5 years = -16 average), 34 years old. Ouch. Atrocious!

This year: +3 in 23 games. Mostly as a 2nd pairing... Not bad.

 

My first question is: Why is Chiarot looked at as a 1st/2nd pairing guy who is really good? For the Wings. Seems like a 3rd pairing guy and that is IT. I don't want him on the top pairing... Although I do think he is a good guy to pair up with ASP because ASP needs a vet presence next to him (IMO), and as a lighter D, I like heavy-Chiarot as his partner... I can live with that.

But why is Holl looked at as some kind of abomination?

I think that's completely ridiculous and I just don't understand you guys. It's not just you SFK, everyone on here holds the same sentiment.

And I don't get it. I've WATCHED him. And it seems like every time I am watching him he makes positive plays for the team. he's not perfect, he makes mistakes, but very few as I've watched him... And maybe he's an old 33... But still don't understand such negative sentiment on Holl. He's certainly NOT worse than Hamonic, and he's been more of a positive on this team than Chiarot (as a 3rd pair D where Chiarot was definitely miscast, although forced into being... the top pair D.. I do understand that...)

I WANT Holl as a 3rd pair D. I think he's the same quality vet D guy, same as Chiarot, that I want matched up with a Johansson, or a Wallinder (if he EVER gets up here to Detroit...). Neither are 1st or 2nd pair D. Unless matched up with a rookie or other young guy on the 2nd pair that needs a steady partner to talk/help them get through NHL play.

IMO.

I don't get the abject hatred of Holl. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Just my 2 cents.

 

(EDIT: Fixed a bunch of grammar/keying errors...)

Edited 2 hours ago by 1984Echoes

[1984Echoes]

10 hours ago, buddha said:

... more likely is that tuomisto is too slow to be an nhl player and wallinder is still too passive and must get stronger and more aggressive.

i do think buium was going to be here until he got hurt.

On Tuomisto - agree, if his speed is a problem at GR, it's certainly going to be worse in the NHL.

Your criticisms of Wallinder may be 100% accurate... but I don't believe that is any kind of "death knell" for Wallinder as a prospect. Which it seems as though you are doing in your posts on him.

If the message is simply: "Dude, you have to get stronger/tougher...", and that's it. Well, I am certainly hoping that that is not a bridge too far for Wallinder to cross. So... maybe he just needs a little more time to add strength and toughness. I have to believe someone can get past that type of hurdle.

And if the team is being conservative with him, even as he DOES add strength and toughness... that's OK too... it just means they are taking it slow with him... also NOT an indictment of his NHL potential.

Or... as you said, maybe they can handle one pair loaded with rookie mistakes (ASP on the 2nd) but do not want to deal with the 3rd pairing also exposed to any (Wallinder) rookie mistakes. Too much for one team/ coach/ roster/ older and slower goalie pair...  to put up with.

 

Lastly... I was thinking the same on Buium. He's looking (err, he was before he got nicked up) fast and dangerous and a net positive as a D.

But we'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out.

Even if I'm chomping at the bit here... quite a lot.

[1984Echoes]

12 hours ago, buddha said:

...  wallinder still has a tiny window to prove himself.

PS: What is Wallinder's window, in your opinion? Can you describe it please (I'm just trying to get at what you're thinking on this... not trying to be an ass...)?

Meaning, how much time does he have before Yzerman tosses him out of our system?

[gehringer_2]

16 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I don't get the abject hatred of Holl. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I watched Holl last season and thought he was a weak link. But so is Hamonic. If you asked me to pick I'd be hard pressed - if you think Holl is better than Hamonic you won't get a strong argument from me but OTOH I don't think the difference is enough that that  choice is going to impact the team much. Neither is good enough IMO.

I also think some of what is going on is that they are trying to take more advantage of Seider, Edvinsson (and eventually ASP's?)) offensive talents and they're having growing pains. We are seeing more Dmen leading rushes than since Ghost left and some Wing forwards are having a tough time playing 200 ft when they are being called on. And there is still some bad decision making by a Dman going when they should have stayed. Mac called out Edvinsson the other day for not realizing he was leaving DeBrincat to rotate back on a guy he couldn't possibly handle. Cat tried, but he was outmanned and it resulted in a goal. If they can all learn to rotate intelligently they will be a much better team for it so IMO it's something they have to suffer through. Getting more out of the big Dmen in the offensive zone is a payoff worth some pain.

[slothfacekilla]

Well my Holl post was a joke so I feel bad that you wrote a long post off of it.  I do disagree that Holl passes any sort of eye test, to me he largely plays fine and then is responsible for really weird mistakes and busted coverage.  He isn't as bad as people on the internet make him out to be, but I wouldn't say that means he's "good".  There's a reason he's been buried in the minors two seasons in a row and no one wanted to claim him.  Ya his contract sucks but I'm sure the Wings would be giddy to trade him with major salary retention, if nothing more than to get rid of a veteran contract in GR because right now they have to rotate sitting veterans because of the vet rule in the AHL.  Slotting him in instead of Hamonic is really just moving deck chairs around on the Titanic.

Wings are probably trying to showcase Gustaffson hoping he plays well enough that a team gets desperate with injuries.  Wallinder probably gets the AlJo treatment where he makes the Wings when he has to pass through waivers.  But I don't know anything, just guesses.

[1984Echoes]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I watched Holl last season and thought he was a weak link. But so is Hamonic...

Last year was one year.

From 2019 through 2023-24, he paced at about +15 per year for a full schedule.

So one bad year in 2024-25 means that's it? He's done? He's garbage that is no different than what Hamonic is offering on ice, right now?

I still don't get that sentiment.

If I want a 3rd pairing stay-at-home defenseman who makes good decisions (for the most part) and throws out good outlet passes, but otherwise "stays at home"... then that is absolutely Holl, IMO. It certainly isn't Hamonic.

And if the team wants ASP or Johansson to jump into the offense... and have one responsible D-man who allows those guys to do that... isn't that Chiarot? On a 2nd pair with ASP? And isn't that Holl,,. on a 3rd pair with Johansson?

Because in my opinion, it ABSOLUTELY is Holl on the 3rd pair with Johansson.

Hamonic can go play in Grand Rapids.

Maybe JBD could be brought into the 3rd pair RHD discussion... but I think he's having some growing pains right now...

Who is better to get in JBD's ear about what is required to be a good 3rd pair RHD stay-at-home defender who makes smart decisions and good outlet passes...?

Oh, yeah... that also ABSOLUTELY would be Holl. NOT Hamonic.

You said you don't think the difference between Harmonic and Holl would make an impact?

I HEARTILY disagree.

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, slothfacekilla said:

Well my Holl post was a joke so ...

I do get this part.

I know some of the complaints on Holl are joking... although not all of them (I don't know who is joking and who is serious in their dislike of Holl... I don't read people well enough to get that distinction...)

 

2 minutes ago, slothfacekilla said:

... so I feel bad that you wrote a long post off of it.  I do disagree that Holl passes any sort of eye test, to me he largely plays fine and then is responsible for really weird mistakes and busted coverage.  He isn't as bad as people on the internet make him out to be, but ...

Don't feel bad.

I wasn't so much picking on you as I really wanted to vent on Holl.

I've always liked him. And I understand his abilities/ weaknesses so it's not like I'm pushing him to be 1st or 2nd pair... I just like him as that 3rd pair vet that allows an offensive/ young guy to be matched up with him.

So I wanted to make it known the full extent of my Holl support.

Thank you, sloth!!! 😁

[gehringer_2]

19 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

So one bad year in 2024-25 means that's it? He's done? He's garbage that is no different than what Hamonic is offering on ice, right now?

I still don't get that sentiment

Every good player is good until he isn't. Petry was a great Dman for a long time for the Habs. Didn't do squat for the Wings for his last two yrs.

[1984Echoes]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Every good player is good until he isn't. Petry was a great Dman for a long time for the Habs. Didn't do squat for the Wings for his last two yrs.

That's not stopping me from swapping Hamonic out for Holl back in...

At all.

[slothfacekilla]

My guess on the Holl vs Hamonic decision is that the Wings want that roster spot eating PK minutes as a crease clearer and be hard to play against.  Hamonic theoretically brings that stuff to the table, whether he can do that in practice at this stage of his career is up for debate though.

[1984Echoes]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

... Petry was a great Dman for a long time for the Habs...

PS: Petry was NOT a great D'man for the Habs.

He was barely average, and NOT the defensive defenseman that Holl is. He was a -131 in 16 NHL years. He DID score almost an average of 40 points per year in his best years with Montreal. But was still a -47 in those "best" years even despite those points.

Is that your definition of "great"?

Just wondering...

[slothfacekilla]

Petry is currently holding down 14 and a half minutes per night on the Panthers, so it isn't like the Wings are the only team with these "issues"