2026 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Of course they would, but if they were brought up in the same period as the 1968 pitchers they would not have had all the advantages that made them who they are today.  They wouldn't have had the same training, technology, heath care, etc that they have today.   

If there were born in a different period, they would be different people.

[gehringer_2]

20 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If there were born in a different period, they would be different people.

baseball pitching has made a terrible devil's bargain in the modern era though. Pitchers are brought to a performance level where their wastage rate is now so high that team's success in a season has as much to do with injury rates as the talent level at the starting gun. We've come to take it for granted because it's now mundane,  but if you stop and think about it, if TJ surgery had never been invented, half the pitchers in the majors would be out of the game. That's a completely absurd situation.

So here's a different take - the increase in strike out rates is partly because of the ability to fix pitchers' arms who do things that pitchers didn't use to be able to do and stay in the game.

Edited yesterday at 01:18 PM by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

20 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If there were born in a different period, they would be different people.

Exactly.  If you take an average pitcher today and transport him into the 60s, he'll be better than most of the pitchers in the 60s.  Athletes are faster, stronger and better prepared now.  Would we doubt that about any other sport?  

[NorthWoods]

12 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

or they'd all be dead the first year after being sent out every 4th day 

The pitching stats compared to today are absurd.   10th best ERA Koosman 2.08   Innings pitched McClain 336.  Complete games - Marichal - 30, Gibson 13 shutouts.  

 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1968-pitching-leaders.shtml

[chasfh]

14 minutes ago, NorthWoods said:

The pitching stats compared to today are absurd.   10th best ERA Koosman 2.08   Innings pitched McClain 336.  Complete games - Marichal - 30, Gibson 13 shutouts.  

 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1968-pitching-leaders.shtml

I think pitchers were able to do that because they could lay up on at least half of any lineup and then pitch to contact, because they knew most players could not reliably hit homers off them, so in most cases it was, "here you go, hit it and get yourself out." Today? Nobody pitches to contact anymore.

In 2025, a guy who hit 1.46 home runs per 100 ABs would rank in the 10th percentile among qualified batters; in 1968, that figure would have placed him close to the 50th percentile. This is the difference between Patrick Bailey in 2025, who's considered a banjo hitter, and Jim Fregosi in 1968, who was considered an average power hitter. The cost of pitching to contact now is too high. Every pitcher is chasing swing and miss now, which requires velocity if you have it, and massive movement if you don't, and both of those strategies taxes the arm way more than here you go hit it and get yourself out.

Back in 1968, pitchers didn't have to put max effort on every single pitch of every single game starting with pitch number one. They could ease up on certain guys and in certain situations. That's a key reason so many more guys could throw 200+ innings back then, but almost no one does now (56 pitchers did so in 1968, almost three per team; only three in all of baseball threw 200+ in 2025). 

[Sports_Freak]

58 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Exactly.  If you take an average pitcher today and transport him into the 60s, he'll be better than most of the pitchers in the 60s.  Athletes are faster, stronger and better prepared now.  Would we doubt that about any other sport?  

OTOH, how many strikeouts were considered OK by hitters? It <seems> like there's less contact being made by hitters in today's game. 

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, Sports_Freak said:

OTOH, how many strikeouts were considered OK by hitters? It <seems> like there's less contact being made by hitters in today's game. 

There probably is, for many reasons.

[NorthWoods]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Back in 1968, pitchers didn't have to put max effort on every single pitch of every single game starting with pitch number one. They could ease up on certain guys and in certain situations. That's a key reason so many more guys could throw 200+ innings back then, but almost no one does now (56 pitchers did so in 1968, almost three per team; only three in all of baseball threw 200+ in 2025). 

I'm not smart enough to know how to argue this but I certainly didn't get the impression that pitchers were letting up on anyone.  Sure there were weak spots in lineups but that's still true today.  Using your let up theory pitchers today could certainly let up on Perez and Rogers.

Looking at middle of the pack teams from 68 they seem similar to today.   The Twins had Carew, Killebrew, Oliva, Allison, Tovar -  the Pirates had Stargell, Clemente, Clendenon, Alou.....both essentially .500 teams.  They had some weak spots in their lineups but certainly batters no one wanted to face.

 

[chasfh]

3 minutes ago, NorthWoods said:

I'm not smart enough to know how to argue this but I certainly didn't get the impression that pitchers were letting up on anyone.  Sure there were weak spots in lineups but that's still true today.  Using your let up theory pitchers today could certainly let up on Perez and Rogers.

Looking at middle of the pack teams from 68 they seem similar to today.   The Twins had Carew, Killebrew, Oliva, Allison, Tovar -  the Pirates had Stargell, Clemente, Clendenon, Alou.....both essentially .500 teams.  They had some weak spots in their lineups but certainly batters no one wanted to face.

 

the rate of home runs hit today versus fifty-eight years ago

[NorthWoods]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

the rate of home runs hit today versus fifty-eight years ago

Is different.   But is that from lowered mounds?   Juiced balls?   Smaller ballparks?  Those and many other factors come into play.   The higher rate of HR's would seem to be poking a hole in the earlier argument here that pitching is better today.  If the pitchers are so far superior how are they getting taken deep more often?

[chasfh]

33 minutes ago, NorthWoods said:

Is different.   But is that from lowered mounds?   Juiced balls?   Smaller ballparks?  Those and many other factors come into play.   The higher rate of HR's would seem to be poking a hole in the earlier argument here that pitching is better today.  If the pitchers are so far superior how are they getting taken deep more often?

Probably all of it, but that doesn't matter as it relates to the point I was making, which is, pitchers have to throw 100% max on every pitch to every hitter today to avoid giving up the home run, and they didn't have to do that in 1968.

If your point is that pitchers in 1968 were better than pitchers today, that's a different discussion. Pitchers from when we were kids are always better than pitchers we're older than. I mean, them's just facts. 😉 

[Tiger337]

44 minutes ago, NorthWoods said:

Is different.   But is that from lowered mounds?   Juiced balls?   Smaller ballparks?  Those and many other factors come into play.   The higher rate of HR's would seem to be poking a hole in the earlier argument here that pitching is better today.  If the pitchers are so far superior how are they getting taken deep more often?

I think this is related to Sportsfreak's earlier point about less contact.  There is less contact because players are trying to hit home runs.  Fans love home runs, so the game has evolved to increase the numbers. As you said, the mound is lower, ballparks are getting smaller and I believe balls are juiced.  Players are now hitting more home runs because it's easier to get enough of them to make the sacrifice of less contact worthwhile. 

In response, in order to avoid home runs, pitchers are throwing max velocity, increasing spin rate and throwing more types of pitches than they did in the 60s.  This reduces contact so as to make the home runs less damaging with fewer base runners.  It also makes it more difficult to string hits together which further motivates players to swing for the fences.  The trade off is that pitchers are not able to pitch as many innings and are getting injured at perhaps greater rates despite more advanced training and health care.  

 

[Sports_Freak]

27 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I think this is related to Sportsfreak's earlier point about less contact.  There is less contact because players are trying to hit home runs.  Fans love home runs, so the game has evolved to increase the numbers. As you said, the mound is lower, ballparks are getting smaller and I believe balls are juiced.  Players are now hitting more home runs because it's easier to get enough of them to make the sacrifice of less contact worthwhile. 

In response, in order to avoid home runs, pitchers are throwing max velocity, increasing spin rate and throwing more types of pitches than they did in the 60s.  This reduces contact so as to make the home runs less damaging with fewer base runners.  It also makes it more difficult to string hits together which further motivates players to swing for the fences.  The trade off is that pitchers are not able to pitch as many innings and are getting injured at perhaps greater rates despite more advanced training and health care.  

 

But you were right about hitters being bigger, stronger and in better shape than in years past. That seems to be true all across sports. Look at offensive linemen in football. It was kinda rare to have 300 pound guys, now every player is that big. Or basketball, 7 footers weren't as common as today.

And this doesn't even take into account video and scouting. People who play sports now have a year long dedication to it. In years past, players had to have an off-season job. It really is a much different game in modern times. And, IMO, the use of relief pitchers is the biggest difference in baseball.

[monkeytargets39]

If we are going to send players back in time, are we going to send them to fight in WWII also?

[Screwball]

Maybe a dumb question. How far back does the pitching data, such as velocity, spin rates, and movement go back? They had radar guns in the 70s but I don't know what else.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said:

If we are going to send players back in time, are we going to send them to fight in WWII also?

Most of them didn't fight in WWII on the front lines. Most of them primarily played baseball for other military personnel.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Screwball said:

Maybe a dumb question. How far back does the pitching data, such as velocity, spin rates, and movement go back? They had radar guns in the 70s but I don't know what else.

2002 for pitch type, pitch value, and plate discipline; 2007 for velocity and movement; 2008 for contact and strike zone location; 2014 for spin; 2020 for arm angle Pre-2007 was measure by Sports Info Solutions; 2007 and on, Statcast and Pitch Info started measuring. 

[Tiger337]

19 minutes ago, Screwball said:

Maybe a dumb question. How far back does the pitching data, such as velocity, spin rates, and movement go back? They had radar guns in the 70s but I don't know what else.

Velocity goes back to 2007 on FanGraphs.  Spin rate and other stuff available back to 2015 on baseball savant.   

According to AI, Military engineers used electric timer and high-speed wire cameras to clock Walter Johnson at 91 MPH in 1917.  Dopplar radar tracked Nolan Ryan's fastball at 100.7 in 1974.

[Tiger337]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Most of them didn't fight in WWII on the front lines. Most of them primarily played baseball for other military personnel.

A lot of them did.  I don't know if it's most.  Even some of the famous players like Berra, Feller and Spahn saw combat.  

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Velocity goes back to 2007 on FanGraphs.  Spin rate and other stuff available back to 2015 on baseball savant.   

According to AI, Military engineers used electric timer and high-speed wire cameras to clock Walter Johnson at 91 MPH in 1917.  Dopplar radar tracked Nolan Ryan's fastball at 100.7 in 1974.

Baseball is a pretty basic sport, very little equipment used by the players where tech can be applied  and even the games played with the liveliness of the ball don't affect throwing it much, so I would guess there is less change in what the players at the limit are doing - if Nolan was throwing 100 as a starter that's about what the fastest guys are doing now, but there are probably a lot more guys optimizing their biomechanics to get near that maximum. So the average is probably up a lot more than the max and what was a big outlier in '74 is probably a lot closer to run of the mill today.

Edited 21 hours ago by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

A lot of them did.  I don't know if it's most.  Even some of the famous players like Berra, Feller and Spahn saw combat.  

Not the majority. But yes, a lot, including names we all know.

[NorthWoods]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

A lot of them did.  I don't know if it's most.  Even some of the famous players like Berra, Feller and Spahn saw combat.  

Ted Williams was in combat as a pilot.

[NorthWoods]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Baseball is a pretty basic sport, very little equipment used by the players where tech can be applied  and even the games played with the liveliness of the ball don't affect throwing it much, so I would guess there is less change in what the players at the limit are doing - if Nolan was throwing 100 as a starter that's about what the fastest guys are doing now, but there are probably a lot more guys optimizing their biomechanics to get near that maximum. So the average is probably up a lot more than the max and what was a big outlier in '74 is probably a lot closer to run of the mill today.

Think what an outlier Nolan Ryan would be today?  What would a pitcher throwing 100+ for 332 innings with 367 K. 26 complete games and a 2.89ERA be worth? That was the 1974 season.

[Sports_Freak]

14 minutes ago, NorthWoods said:

Think what an outlier Nolan Ryan would be today?  What would a pitcher throwing 100+ for 332 innings with 367 K. 26 complete games and a 2.89ERA be worth? That was the 1974 season.

Hinch would take him out after 6 innings to bring in a AAA pitcher...lmao

[Tiger337]

36 minutes ago, NorthWoods said:

Think what an outlier Nolan Ryan would be today?  What would a pitcher throwing 100+ for 332 innings with 367 K. 26 complete games and a 2.89ERA be worth? That was the 1974 season.

Lolich threw 376 innings in 1971!