Sports_Freak Posted June 27 Posted June 27 4 hours ago, Tenacious D said: ? He’s done for the day. Toughed it out like an ace should. Yeah, I was on delay. Kinda feel for Hinch...this bullpen is SO inconsistent. One day a pitcher shuts down the other team, the next time out it's like batting practice. I guess we should expect them to blow leads....we won't be as disappointed. Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 27 Posted June 27 (edited) 3 hours ago, chasfh said: Can you imagine how old timey players and fans would react to images of today's players hugging each other after home runs and the like? They might well swear off the game for good at that point. Italian guy on KC kisses teammates. Edited June 27 by Sports_Freak Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 27 Posted June 27 3 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said: Good example of why keeping Skubal to go for it isn’t worth it. We don’t have a bullpen that holds leads. Unless Skubal is giving us 8/9 innings…. Prospects can easily turn into what we got for JV. Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 27 Posted June 27 2 hours ago, chasfh said: I mean, come on, something like 11-30 in games decided by two runs or fewer can't be 100% because of the bullpen. But it can't be 0%, either. If we were simply .500 in those games, we'd be leading the division by at least two games. This can be a good team, as constructed. They have shown as much. As Lee showed us in another thread, by some measures, we are still the best in the division. Something is simply broken, and they simply in a bad stretch where they are blowing too many games. Fans can blame Hinch and say it's all on him, and I don't know that I agree, but I can't really argue against that at this point.We do know he took a team that was supposed to do nothing and, between August 2024 and August 2025, led them to dramatically overachieve. And we know has has drastically underachieved with a close facsimile of the same team ever since. The team has been hurt and missing key pieces, and they still are, and that definitely has something to do with the losing this year. But that does not explain random problems like eighth inning Vest. I don't think anything can explain eighth inning Vest. Otherwise there would be a fix for that. Players simply don't have some mechanical flaw that leads them to fail only in the eighth inning while they absolutely crush it in the seventh and ninth innings. It makes no sense. Yet, it's happening. There it is. I don't believe that firing Harris, firing Hinch, trading or releasing practically everyone on the team, selling the franchise, moving the team to Charlotte—I don't see how any of that is going to help anything, either now or long term. But I am at a loss as to how to respond to any of these. They're all on the table, I guess. (Well, probably not the Charlotte thing.) So anyone who says those are the things that have to happen, that's just as valid as me saying hang on, see the plan through, it's going to get better once the breaks come our way. Speaking only for me, maybe it would be best for my own state of mind to just disengage from the day to day of this team, seeing as how nothing is moving us forward and it really does look like we are headed for a sell-off, and just wait to see what happens then. Harris is on the spot, and he does not have much needle space to thread to get it just right. Executives that run teams have been fired, all the time, for poor roster construction. I think Harris is probably safe for this season but the money he has spent on pitching without any contributions will be remembered by the Tiger owner. He opened up the payroll in anticipation of supporting a winning team. Yes, injuries hurt us, as well as a serious lack of depth. Counting on players to repeat 2024 results seems unrealistic now. Javy, Tork and McKinstry all fell off the face of the earth. With no players to take their place. Too many utility type players playing all over the field really hurt our defense. I dont totally blame Hinch, he can only use the guys he's been given. Our problems are all bullpen related...18 blown leads is the worst in MLB. Many of the same bullpen arms who were very good the last couple of years. Inexplicable. Quote
tiger2022 Posted June 28 Posted June 28 34 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: I dont totally blame Hinch, he can only use the guys he's been given. So no blame for Hinch who it seems like, outside of winning, his main goal with the offense is to make sure Keith and Carpenter never get an at-bat against a left handed pitcher? But I think Harris has done a horrific job of constructing this roster. What has he done for the past 3 years? Gleyber Torres? Got lucky drafting McGonigle and that he was ready at 21 to play in the majors. Think about how much worse the team would be without McGonigle. Harris reminds me of Bob Quinn. Quote
tiger2022 Posted June 28 Posted June 28 Other managers outmanage Hinch anytime Keith or Carpenter are due up. They know to just bring in a lefty to get a massively favorable matchup because Hinch will always get Jones in there. Quote
NorthWoods Posted June 28 Posted June 28 18 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: Got lucky drafting McGonigle No matter the rest of your post, this part is ignoring or not knowing history. Max Clark was drafted with the agreement that he would sign for under slot $$, leaving extra money on the table to draft McGonigle or someone similar. So to call a plan all luck is unfair. The agreement with Clark gave the Tigers 2 bites at the apple. McGonigle turned out to be one of them . 1 Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 28 Posted June 28 16 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: So no blame for Hinch who it seems like, outside of winning, his main goal with the offense is to make sure Keith and Carpenter never get an at-bat against a left handed pitcher? But I think Harris has done a horrific job of constructing this roster. What has he done for the past 3 years? Gleyber Torres? Got lucky drafting McGonigle and that he was ready at 21 to play in the majors. Think about how much worse the team would be without McGonigle. Harris reminds me of Bob Quinn. Its really common, in all sports, when a team has success, to bring back as many players as possible. And it's usually a mistake. The core players, yes. But the fringe players should be evaluated and replaced. McKinstry and Vierling are good examples. As well as replacing somebody very unreliable, Meadows. Counting on him in CF was a huge mistake. But even with all that, its our BP that has us 15 games under .500. 18 games we had leads the BP gave up. Worst in baseball. Thats not on Hinch or Harris, it's on the individual players. Harris should get a pass for this season but he should be on a very hot seat. Our payroll.... 1 Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 28 Posted June 28 26 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: So no blame for Hinch who it seems like, outside of winning, his main goal with the offense is to make sure Keith and Carpenter never get an at-bat against a left handed pitcher? But I think Harris has done a horrific job of constructing this roster. What has he done for the past 3 years? Gleyber Torres? Got lucky drafting McGonigle and that he was ready at 21 to play in the majors. Think about how much worse the team would be without McGonigle. Harris reminds me of Bob Quinn. Well, Hinch always plays the percentages. Every time. Good managers sometimes play a hunch, not what the stats tell them they should do. Saber guys love that, playing what the stats tells you to do takes all the guesswork and second guessing out of it. Playing hunches like....Jimmy Leyland going into New Youk City in a playoff game and using Donnie Kelly. And hitting him in the 2 hole? Is he crazy?? Well, Donnie Kelly hit a 1st inning home run and the Tigers never looked back. 😆 Hall of Fame manager... Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 28 Posted June 28 (edited) I don't have problem with the core hitters in the line-up. Even Tork, though he had a bad April, has pretty much hit his career norms since then. I see their error more as counting on the bench guys based on what were probably outlier seasons for them - eps Jones of course. If I'm playing armchair GM, I'd rather keep rolling over bench guys, always scouting for the next guy that might be ready to have his one better than average year. I think there is some success to be had looking for no-previous-power guys reaching their 28th or so birthday that can give you a better season or two in their peak strength years before the 30 yr + fall-off starts. (Don Kelly types). (EDIT - agree with SF here) But the primary problem with the hitting lineup is that it is just too short - they weren't having so much trouble scoring runs with Gleyber and Javy in the lineup. Torres is the big loss, and while Javy ain't great he's better than the guys that have played in his place. And of course the BP. It's just been bad. Was it foreseeable? Well, Vest was already getting erratic last season and they signed an old guy to be the anchor. Was this a good plan? They haven't actually had that many injures to BP pitchers - right now just Horn and Hurter. I see part of it as by choice - I'd be looking at Madden in leverage relief roles in place of Vest. Edited June 28 by gehringer_2 2 Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 28 Posted June 28 15 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I don't have problem with the core hitters in the line-up. Even Tork, though he had a bad April, has pretty much hit his career norms since then. I see their error more as counting on the bench guys based on what were probably outlier seasons for them - eps Jones of course. If I'm playing armchair GM, I'd rather keep rolling over bench guys, always scouting for the next guy that might be ready to have his one better than average year. I think there is some success to be had looking for no-previous-power guys reaching their 28th or so birthday that can give you a better season or two in their peak strength years before the 30 yr + fall-off starts. (Don Kelly types). (EDIT - agree with SF here) But the primary problem with the hitting lineup is that it is just too short - they weren't having so much trouble scoring runs with Gleyber and Javy in the lineup. Torres is the big loss, and while Javy ain't great he's better than the guys that have played in his place. And of course the BP. It's just been bad. Was it foreseeable? Well, Vest was already getting erratic last season and they signed an old guy to be the anchor. Was this a good plan? They haven't actually had that many injures to BP pitchers - right now just Horn and Hurter. I see part of it as by choice - I'd be looking at Madden in leverage relief roles in place of Vest. And you know the Tigers excuses that no hitters wanna come here to hit at Comerica? It should work just the opposite for pitchers, pitchers should be begging to sign with us. Quote
tiger2022 Posted June 28 Posted June 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, NorthWoods said: No matter the rest of your post, this part is ignoring or not knowing history. Max Clark was drafted with the agreement that he would sign for under slot $$, leaving extra money on the table to draft McGonigle or someone similar. So to call a plan all luck is unfair. The agreement with Clark gave the Tigers 2 bites at the apple. McGonigle turned out to be one of them . A 2nd round high school kid -37th overall- is basically a huge crap shoot. So to make it sound like Harris knew he was going to be a solid mlb player, especially at 21, is beyond ridiculous. Edited June 28 by tiger2022 Quote
Tenacious D Posted June 28 Posted June 28 23 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: A 2nd round high school kid -37th overall- is basically a huge crap shoot. So to make it sound like Harris knew he was going to be a solid mlb player, especially at 21, is beyond ridiculous. I disagree. McGonigle dropped because he was perceived to be difficult to sign, but he was viewed by draft experts as a legit 1st round talent with one of the best hit tools. This isn’t being revisionist. 1 Quote
NorthWoods Posted June 28 Posted June 28 48 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: I disagree. McGonigle dropped because he was perceived to be difficult to sign, but he was viewed by draft experts as a legit 1st round talent with one of the best hit tools. This isn’t being revisionist. And exactly why the Tigers chose Clark - to get McGonigle $$ For 2022 - it was all openly discussed at the time. https://www.mlb.com/news/max-clark-no-3-overall-pick-signs-with-tigers https://www.blessyouboys.com/2023/7/17/23798063/detroit-tigers-mlb-draft-2023-max-clark-signing-slot-bonus Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 28 Posted June 28 (edited) 11 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: And you know the Tigers excuses that no hitters wanna come here to hit at Comerica? It should work just the opposite for pitchers, pitchers should be begging to sign with us. that whole trope is mostly nonsense. That park has played fine since they moved in LF 20 yrs ago. A disservice done to the team perpetuated for years by Lynn Henning. Most recent park factors are dead on 100, even slightly positive for HR at 103. The only stat for the park is more than a couple of percent outlier either way is triples, which if very positive for. If you can run you should love COPA. Edited June 28 by gehringer_2 1 Quote
chasfh Posted June 28 Posted June 28 If the Tigers really want to attract top free agent talent, they could help themselves by creating the best situation for players’ families of any team in the game, in terms of child care, family amenities, travel arrangements, etc. That’s if the Athletic player poll is to be believed, anyway. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 30 Posted June 30 On 6/28/2026 at 10:00 AM, chasfh said: If the Tigers really want to attract top free agent talent, they could help themselves by creating the best situation for players’ families of any team in the game, in terms of child care, family amenities, travel arrangements, etc. That’s if the Athletic player poll is to be believed, anyway. supposedly this is a thing the Ilitch org takes seriously, but maybe there is still a disconnect between what an owner thinks is going out of his way and how the players see what is being done. 🤔 True Story: I remember sitting at a national sales meeting with the CEO of our fortune 100, one of these Texans that wore his evangelical Christianity on his sleeve BTW. And he was waxing rhapsodic about the company is a family and we work for each other yadda-yadda, and then, in the Q&A, someone had the temerity to ask him a question about healthcare coverages, and the transition to emperor Commodus was almost instantaneous. 🙄 Quote
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