mtutiger

Putting this in this particular thread over the game thread given that the discussion has turned toward bigger picture. We all agree that the first three games were unacceptable, that much I think we can acknowledge. But one big question I see regarding this team going forward, and perhaps where there is disagreement, and with the caveat being that we are only through three games against a very good opponent, is how much of what we saw in St. Petersburg is cultural and how much of it is talent, or if it's a mix of both to varying degrees. PECOTA had this team at 66 wins, Fangraphs had them at 71 wins. An average of the two seems reasonable on paper for the talent they have - this isn't the 2003 Detroit Tigers that was trotting out Gene Kingsale and Nate Cornejo and the like, so no, I don't see them competing with them. So I see there being cultural and mental issues facing this team on top of whatever issues with talent they have. You would think that is fixable, particularly bringing better approaches to the plate, but IDK. And that also raises questions about coaching as well.

Those K rates are scary, but he can draw a walk and still has upside... Another LHH OF, which isn't ideal either. Not sure who you DFA to get a rid of him... Would have to be an infielder like McKinstry or Short. But overall the kinda guy the Tigers should be looking at on the wire

I thought one of the beat writers suggested they did check in or try on Wil Myers, but I could be wrong. Jean Segura I know was one they were in on. As far as signing any of these guys is concerned, I would have been fine with it. It's not that I am against signing free agents entirely, but if I am being honest with myself, I am not going to delude myself into thinking they have a better chance of being competitive shopping in the 1 WAR bargain bin. The significant advances toward improvement have always had to come from within.

It isnt so much that those guys could turn into solid adds more than I dont understand how shopping at the 1 WAR bargain bin for the Wil Myers or Brandon Drury types is that much better. Other than it gives the fanbase someone new to complain about when they fail to live up to their contract (see Jonathan Schoop)

Will Myers wouldn't have given me any more faint hope. And I doubt he would given the fan base anymore hope either. Regarding your second point, we will see tons of churn this year regardless.

I hear you, but then again, we are working with a 3 game sample size so far this season... I need to see more of the finished product and what it produces before I'm convinced that Wil Myers would have changed their trajectory. As an aside, outside of the offseason, this is the absolute worst time of the year as a baseball fan... this isn't really the sport to make broad sweeping pronouncements after three games, but every year, fans do it regardless. Sparky said 40, but I'd even take 20 at this point.

The other piece part of the inflated prices isn't $$$, it's length of contract. When Haniger, coming off of missing most of last year got 3 years, that's nuts. Hell, Tucker Barnhart, who everyone in this board wanted to fire into the sun last season, got 2 years. My guess is that free agency being deprioritized in this first offseason has a lot to do with contract lengths as much as it did finances.

I just asked a simple question about which free agents would have affected a different outcome in the last series. With the overall point being that bringing up free agents is sort of a red herring given how terrible they were in this one particular series IMO. I understand your argument in the bigger picture, I see the pros and cons to both ways of thinking. As this season wears on we will probably see the stats bear out that certain free agents could have theoretically helped them a game or two in W/L if they had the chance to sign them. Again, just stating that, given how they played this weekend, I just don't see how signing Wil Myers or Brandon Drury would have affected a different outcome in these three games.

I believe you missed the part where I said I liked Mitch Haniger. But even as much as I like him and actually wish they could have signed him, I don't think he would have affected a different outcome in this series. Baseball is a team sport, there are 26 roster spots; you aren't going to win many games if only 5 of the 26 play well. Plugging and playing Mitch Hangier into one of those spots, assuming he's even healthy, doesn't really change that basic math problem. Either way, as far as pooh poohing is concerned, aside from the fact that I'm pretty sure I'm the one with the minority view here, I just think that complaining about free agency activity is the easy way out here. It's harder, and scarier, to admit that this thing rises or falls on the talent that they still had in the org in 2022 and retain today. Said it in the offseason, will say it again now. It just is what it is.

None of these players would have affected a different outcome in a series where the rest of the team plays like that

I liked Hanger a lot, though he's going through an oblique issue at the moment and isn't playing. Which in and of itself shows how free agency is a crapshoot. The discussion about strategy on free agents is a fair one to have, but in terms of assessing and reacting to what happened in St. Petersburg this weekend, its not particularly relevant given just how bad most of the team, basically everyone outside of Joey Wentz, Eduardo, and a couple others played. Nobody wants to hear it, but it's the reality. Put another way, there's a baseline that the rest of the club would need to play at for free agents to factor into wins and losses, and they failed to even meet that at The Trop.

Crazy how much we've been agreeing lately 🤣

I'm still waiting to hear an example of a "throw a bone" type vet free agent that would have made much of a difference during this series.

And even if they did, does the class of free agent hitter they would theoretically be competitive in attempting to sign (ie. Wil Myers, Brandon Drury) really change much? Would it really move the needle over these three games for instance? There really isn't a way around them needing to get more production out of their young players and their vets, or needing to get production out of players who missed time in 2022 (ie. Turnbull, Meadows, Rogers). People want a cheat code, but it's going to take time to unravel the mess left behind from the previous regime.

This is the crux of the biscuit right here. Hope we see some of that young talent show up in the remaining 159 games... Because it wasn't readily apparent through the first three games, that's for sure

No doubt... But I interpreted your comment more about specifically acquiring McKinstry. Maybe the team should have done more this offseason, but in terms of individual moves, I don't think the owner should be arbitrarily nixing trades.

Having watched too much of Jerry Jones and Mark Cuban over the years, I'm not sure a more hands-on approach is a better one. But that's just me. Not that he's gonna be a savior for this club, but Nevin coming back from the IL would be one way to rip the bandaid off

We talked about this a lot with last year's team as well, and obviously maybe it isn't the most important thing, but who is the leader in the clubhouse? Who is the guy who commands the respect of the room and helps give them an identity? Certainly in Spring, it sounded like Haase and Maton were those two guys, but in what I saw offensively this weekend, I saw a team that was sort of aimless and unable to adjust to the quality of their opponent. In that way, it felt like 2022 all over again... lack of talent is one thing, but the effort didn't seem there to me

The pitching was what it was this series, I have some faith they will get the bullpen sorted out. Fetter and Co. earned some patience last year on that front. Turnbull was bad, but he gets grace coming off TJ. More concerning is the offense, and a lot of it, to me, seems like it's between the ears. Granted that's a good staff they faced, but they are going to need to figure it out and get some sort of identity as an offensive unit before it gets even uglier. Lastly, Rogers needs to play more at catcher. Haase should get ABs, but Jake seems more trustworthy behind the plate

Finally lol

This team is significantly more talented than 2003 or even 2019.

The pitching was a disaster yesterday, but that felt like a one-off. The hitting kinda doesn't, which is scary for sure

Picked a good day to have other plans lol

And to think he very nearly didn't make the Opening Rotation lol

Cynicism is fine, I just don't think being cynical requires being reactionary