SCOTUS and whatnot

[Tigerbomb13]

15 minutes ago, oblong said:

agree with your assessment.  This is a case where many things are true all at the same time.  There is a genocide in Gaza and what many in the IDF and others are doing is horrific.  I just read something yesterday about rapes and beatings of women and children.  What happened on Oct 7, 2023 is equally horrific.  Netyenyahu is a bitch and finally got Trump to do his bidding.  He's a horrible individual.  Jews are being targeted with antisemitism and also people conflate criticism of the government in Israel with anti semitism.  It's all true.  But too many are forced to pick "sides" and have to tread lightly without offending someone who they also agree with on nearly everything.  I refuse to pick a side and pretend that's pure and free from atrocities.  

Agree with all of this. I get annoyed when some conflate how awful the actions of Netenyahu/IDF with anti-semitism. Hamas are war criminals, Bibi is a war criminal and we can agree on those things without picking a side. Anti-semitism is bad no matter the political leanings. 

[buddha]

37 minutes ago, oblong said:

agree with your assessment.  This is a case where many things are true all at the same time.  There is a genocide in Gaza and what many in the IDF and others are doing is horrific.  I just read something yesterday about rapes and beatings of women and children.  What happened on Oct 7, 2023 is equally horrific.  Netyenyahu is a bitch and finally got Trump to do his bidding.  He's a horrible individual.  Jews are being targeted with antisemitism and also people conflate criticism of the government in Israel with anti semitism.  It's all true.  But too many are forced to pick "sides" and have to tread lightly without offending someone who they also agree with on nearly everything.  I refuse to pick a side and pretend that's pure and free from atrocities.  

yeah, its a tough situation.  one that brings out a lot of emotion on all sides.

[gehringer_2]

44 minutes ago, oblong said:

agree with your assessment.  This is a case where many things are true all at the same time.  There is a genocide in Gaza and what many in the IDF and others are doing is horrific.  I just read something yesterday about rapes and beatings of women and children.  What happened on Oct 7, 2023 is equally horrific.  Netyenyahu is a bitch and finally got Trump to do his bidding.  He's a horrible individual.  Jews are being targeted with antisemitism and also people conflate criticism of the government in Israel with anti semitism.  It's all true.  But too many are forced to pick "sides" and have to tread lightly without offending someone who they also agree with on nearly everything.  I refuse to pick a side and pretend that's pure and free from atrocities.  

One of the things that has happened in Israel is that public opinion there has hardened - the radicalism of Hamas and Hezbollah has in turn created a reaction in the Israeli general population sufficient to create a majority of support for Netanyahu's terrible policies. It's sort of the same phenomenon we see here with Americans supporting terrible cruel Trump policies. I don't know what the answer is when whole societies lose their moral bearings. In the ME it's been an ever descending spiral for my entire lifetime. Arabs cheer in the street when Israelis die, eventually Israeli's don't care how many Arabs they kill. And we've imported those mentalities onto the DOD with Hegseth cheering at killing people with same kind of glee as a dedicated Hamas radical. Hard to see it all ending on any good note.

Edited 1 hour ago by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

45 minutes ago, buddha said:

the protests at universities, the harassment of jewish students, the violence against jewish students, the increase in violence against jewish people all over the country, especially in large cities.  swastikas painted in new york and other places.  there were violent attacks last week against jewish people in new york again outside a synagogue.  there are security details in chicago assigned to synagogues up here by me.  multiple jewish people have been shot walking down the street in chicago over the past few years.

there has been a huge uptick in anti-semitic violence in major cities.  yes, the far right is always against jews (see tucker carlson and that nutty band of ignorant ****s), but now you've seen it in liberal areas as well.

the human rights commissioner for chicago recently resigned because mayor johnson insisted that she amend her report on anti-semitism in the city.  the report cited the huge upsurge in violence and threats against jews in the city, but johnson refused to release it unless it was changed to focus on other minorities.  the equivalent of making "black lives matter" into "all lives matter" so the report could be diluted and it wouldnt upset his far left supporters on city council like sigcho-lopez or rossana rodriguez.  the anti-israeli art exhibit at the chicago city museum.  the attacks on the two israeli students at depaul.

again, protesting israeli military actions in the middle east is one thing - everyone is entitled to their opinion on the war.  but its spilled over into a huge surge in violence in urban areas, fed largely by online agitators and the hysterical and over-the-top way we present news on social media now.  people are taking out their feelings about israel on jewish citizens.  its akin to people assaulting asians after covid, but on a much much larger scale.

we have 3000 years of history telling us how people treat jews differently. 

You're describing real things, and I don't want to minimize any of it. The incidents in Chicago, the university harassment, the attacks on Jewish students, the Johnson administration's handling of that human rights report. All of that is documented, troubling, and worth calling out forcefully. But here's where I'd draw the line: what you're describing is a surge in antisemitic behavior in urban areas, much of it traceable to radicalized fringe actors, online agitators, and a specific political moment inflamed by the Gaza war. That's real. What I would resist is the leap from that to "the left"—let alone the Democratic Party—having embraced antisemitism as a core value. Johnson's handling of that report was cowardly and shameful. But a cowardly and shameful response as a concession borne of political calculation isn't the same as core ideological antisemitism, and it's definitely not representative of Democratic governance writ large.

The far left has absolutely provided cover for some of this, and that's a legitimate indictment of a certain strain of activist politics. But the far left isn't the Democratic Party, and recognizing the asymmetry that exists matters, because the Republican Party has largely been taken over by its radical wing, to the point where figures who would have been considered fringe a decade ago now set the governing agenda. That's not at all true of the Democrats. Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and the party's mainstream leadership have been meaningfully critical of campus antisemitism and pro-Hamas rhetoric. The Democratic Party hasn't been captured by its loudest voices the way the GOP has, and pretending the two situations are equivalent in the interest of both-sidism actually lets the bad actors on the left off the hook by miscasting all this as mainstream partisan symmetry, rather than specific aberrant behavior that demands to be condemned.

So, yes to everything you're citing as real. No to the implication that Democrats own antisemitism as a value.

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That's not at all true of the Democrats. Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and the party's mainstream leadership have been meaningfully critical of campus antisemitism and pro-Hamas rhetoric. The Democratic Party hasn't been captured by its loudest voices the way the GOP

It doesn't break on a particularly consistent pattern. Just as an example, it's GOP candidates for Michigan Regent seats that have been the most outspoken in opposition to the shout out to the Palestinian activists in the UM commencement speech while it is a board with a majority of pretty mainstream Democrats that has been roundly criticized for allowing the mood on campus to become toxic/dangerous to Jewish students in the first place. 

[buddha]

9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

You're describing real things, and I don't want to minimize any of it. The incidents in Chicago, the university harassment, the attacks on Jewish students, the Johnson administration's handling of that human rights report. All of that is documented, troubling, and worth calling out forcefully. But here's where I'd draw the line: what you're describing is a surge in antisemitic behavior in urban areas, much of it traceable to radicalized fringe actors, online agitators, and a specific political moment inflamed by the Gaza war. That's real. What I would resist is the leap from that to "the left"—let alone the Democratic Party—having embraced antisemitism as a core value. Johnson's handling of that report was cowardly and shameful. But a cowardly and shameful response as a concession borne of political calculation isn't the same as core ideological antisemitism, and it's definitely not representative of Democratic governance writ large.

The far left has absolutely provided cover for some of this, and that's a legitimate indictment of a certain strain of activist politics. But the far left isn't the Democratic Party, and recognizing the asymmetry that exists matters, because the Republican Party has largely been taken over by its radical wing, to the point where figures who would have been considered fringe a decade ago now set the governing agenda. That's not at all true of the Democrats. Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and the party's mainstream leadership have been meaningfully critical of campus antisemitism and pro-Hamas rhetoric. The Democratic Party hasn't been captured by its loudest voices the way the GOP has, and pretending the two situations are equivalent in the interest of both-sidism actually lets the bad actors on the left off the hook by miscasting all this as mainstream partisan symmetry, rather than specific aberrant behavior that demands to be condemned.

So, yes to everything you're citing as real. No to the implication that Democrats own antisemitism as a value.

i dont think "the left" is anti-semitic.  i think the left is anti-american and anti-western.  the left has bought into the idea perpetuated in universities that israel is a "colonizer" and that therefore it is bad.  and trump supporting israel has inflamed the left because they hate everything trump touches (with good reason).

but i DO think that the rhetoric matters.  what the fringe right and the fringe left say filters into the mainstream (israel as a colonizer state is a good example of a fringe idea that has become mainstream left wing doctrine), and the left does have a number of prominent political figures who are moving ever so gently down the anti-semitic path.  ilhan omar is anti-semitic.  rossana rodriguez is anti-semitic.  to your point, those are fringe figures, but the fringe sometimes becomes the mainstream.

"i dont hate jews, i hate anti-zionists" is the equivalent of "i dont hate black people, i hate n-words."

and i say all of this 10x about the right.  they dont try to hide it like the fringe left.

[oblong]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

It doesn't break on a particularly consistent pattern. Just as an example, it's GOP candidates for Michigan Regent seats that have been the most outspoken in opposition to the shout out to the Palestinian activists in the UM commencement speech while it is a board with a majority of pretty mainstream Democrats that has been roundly criticized for allowing the mood on campus to become toxic/dangerous to Jewish students in the first place. 

If a democrat running for office in Michigan spoke out against anti-semitism their poll numbers in the primary would go down.  It's the left politicians that have to tap dance.  The right wing, not so much.  They can be pro israel all they want.

[Motown Bombers]

The Democratic nominee in Maine is a Nazi and a lot of the most prominent Democratic senators in New England endorsed him. AIPAC has basically become the new boogeyman. It’s basically the Soros of the left. They do six degrees of AIPAC to see if a filthy Jew somewhere down the line donated to someone who donated to another person who may have donated to you. They don’t care about genocide in Ukraine, Sudan, etc but immediately throw that term around with Israel. There is definitely antisemitism on the left and it’s forcing the mainstream Dems to deal with it and some are just giving in. 

[Motown Bombers]

12 minutes ago, oblong said:

If a democrat running for office in Michigan spoke out against anti-semitism their poll numbers in the primary would go down.  It's the left politicians that have to tap dance.  The right wing, not so much.  They can be pro israel all they want.

The Michigan senate race is all about who took money from the dirty Jews. 

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

israel as a colonizer state is a good example

Except that that is exactly what Israel is doing today in the West Bank. The State of Israel has bought and paid for the critique they are getting. 

Having sympathy with anyone is dubious when there are no good guys. 🫤

[oblong]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Except that that is exactly what Israel is doing today in the West Bank. The State of Israel has bought and paid for the critique they are getting. 

Having sympathy with anyone is dubious when there are no good guys. 🫤

There are no good guys and I refuse to say "yeah but....." when criticizing one or the other.    I have many friends, people I could text right now and get a response, who have had families either killed or houses destroyed in Lebanon by Israel. 

[gehringer_2]

40 minutes ago, oblong said:

If a democrat running for office in Michigan spoke out against anti-semitism their poll numbers in the primary would go down.  It's the left politicians that have to tap dance.  The right wing, not so much.  They can be pro israel all they want.

My grandfather, who came to this country in flight from genocide, would always get impatient at his fellow emigres when they would talk old homeland grievances, he would say "You came here to leave all that behind!" 

When the old world grievances of emigres become issues in US politics it never helps America, whether it's Cuba, Israel, Palestine, Iraq, whatever.

Edited 4 minutes ago by gehringer_2