2025 MLB Thread

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Andruw Jones is in the Hall and Lou Whitaker is not.   Come on, man

Kent was a worse choice than Jones.  Jones was questionnable and I wouldn't put him in, but he is perhaps the best defensive outfielder ever - better defensive numbers than Mays.  So, at least he's got that.  Kent played the same position as Whitaker and was 20 wins behind him in WAR.  

[Motor City Sonics]

7 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Kent was a worse choice than Jones.  Jones was questionnable and I wouldn't put him in, but he is perhaps the best defensive outfielder ever - better defensive numbers than Mays.  So, at least he's got that.  Kent played the same position as Whitaker and was 20 wins behind him in WAR.  

I mean, what is it?   He didn't talk to the Press?   Is that all this is?    I never heard he was rude about it.    Some guys just don't have anything to share.   Jim Rice is in.   He never became a manager because of the whole Press thing, but he's in.  I just don't get it.  It will always be a crime that Lou & Alan are not together.    

[RatkoVarda]

Luis Robert to Mets for 2 blah prospects. Nice roll of the dice by the Mets. If Robert can play 100-110 games (huge ? mark there) could be impactful for them.

[Motor City Sonics]

2 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

Luis Robert to Mets for 2 blah prospects. Nice roll of the dice by the Mets. If Robert can play 100-110 games (huge ? mark there) could be impactful for them.

It works because he's got talent around him.   Obviously he's not the guy that makes other people better............I think the White Sox have made some smart moves too the last couple of years.   

[tiger2022]

12 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Kent was a worse choice than Jones.  Jones was questionnable and I wouldn't put him in, but he is perhaps the best defensive outfielder ever - better defensive numbers than Mays.  So, at least he's got that.  Kent played the same position as Whitaker and was 20 wins behind him in WAR.  

Kent was a great choice.  Your argument is based on WAR and WAR alone.  

Kent was arguably the greatest offensive 2nd baseman.  .290 avg, 377 hrs, 1518 rbi, 1320 runs. .855 ops.  I know people hate all these stats now and just go by war, but who cares if Kent wasn't a Gold Glover or amazing base runner.

And just because they hate Whitaker and won't put him in the HOF doesn't mean Kent shouldn't be in there.

Edited 4 hours ago by tiger2022

[NorthWoods]

13 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Andruw Jones is in the Hall and Lou Whitaker is not.   Come on, man

 

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, tiger2022 said:

Kent was a great choice.  Your argument is based on WAR and WAR alone.  

Kent was arguably the greatest offensive 2nd baseman.  .290 avg, 377 hrs, 1518 rbi, 1320 runs. .855 ops.  I know people hate all these stats now and just go by war, but who cares if Kent wasn't a Gold Glover or amazing base runner.

And just because they hate Whitaker and won't put him in the HOF doesn't mean Kent shouldn't be in there.

I care if he wasn't as great of a fielder or base runner.  Those are parts of the game and they count in determining a player's overall value.  People say that they don't care about fielding and base running and then they complain when the see fielders making bad plays or baserunning mistakes.  I used WAR in this case because Kent and Whitaker were similar types of players playing the same position and about the same number of games and WAR does a good job of showing that Whitaker was a better overall player.    And Kent was not much better as a hitter (123 OPs+ vs 118 OPS+).  Kent's value got pumped up because of his RBI totals.  It's not too hard accumulating a lot of RBI when you bat behind Barry Bonds!

Edited 3 hours ago by Tiger337

[Stormin]

39 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I care if he wasn't as great of a fielder or base runner.  Those are parts of the game and they count in determining a player's overall value.  People say that they don't care about fielding and base running and then they complain when the see fielders making bad plays or baserunning mistakes.  I used WAR in this case because Kent and Whitaker were similar types of players playing the same position and about the same number of games and WAR does a good job of showing that Whitaker was a better overall player.    And Kent was not much better as a hitter (123 OPs+ vs 118 OPS+).  Kent's value got pumped up because of his RBI totals.  It's not too hard accumulating a lot of RBI when you bad behind Barry Bonds!

" You can get into the HOF if you hit 377 HRs, .862 OPS, 139 OPS+ and are a slow base runner and a poor fielder?  Why didn't the Tigers let me play second base?   -- Signed Norm Cash" 🙂

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, Stormin said:

" You can get into the HOF if you hit 377 HRs, .862 OPS, 139 OPS+ and are a slow base runner and a poor fielder?  Why didn't the Tigers let me play second base?   -- Signed Norm Cash" 🙂

As you probably remember, Cash also had a rep as a good first baseman.  It's hard to measure firstbase defense, but the stats back up his reputation, at least in the 60s before he aged. 

[Stormin]

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

As you probably remember, Cash also had a rep as a good first baseman.  It's hard to measure firstbase defense, but the stats back up his reputation, at least in the 60s before he aged. 

He was drafted as a running back by the Chicago Bears, so I don't know if Norm was that slow.  The left handed throws from second base would have been a challenge.

[tiger2022]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I care if he wasn't as great of a fielder or base runner.  Those are parts of the game and they count in determining a player's overall value.  People say that they don't care about fielding and base running and then they complain when the see fielders making bad plays or baserunning mistakes.  I used WAR in this case because Kent and Whitaker were similar types of players playing the same position and about the same number of games and WAR does a good job of showing that Whitaker was a better overall player.    And Kent was not much better as a hitter (123 OPs+ vs 118 OPS+).  Kent's value got pumped up because of his RBI totals.  It's not too hard accumulating a lot of RBI when you bat behind Barry Bonds!

I imagine Bonds hit all those home runs for him too.  

The dude still did what he did, no matter how much you don't want it to be true.  

Also, Kent hit 3rd and Bonds hit 4th.  Whitaker had an actual HOFer hitting after him.  That Bonds fellow couldn't even make it in the HOF.

 

[NorthWoods]

Pretty good article on active players and Hall chances.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/baseball-hall-of-fame-active-mlb-players-locks-on-track/

 

Tarik Skubal
Skubal won the American League Cy Young in both 2024 and 2025, making him the first repeat AL winner in more than two decades. Coming off his age-28 season, he's set himself up pretty well to possibly win a third Cy Young; every pitcher who has done that so far is either in the Hall of Fame (Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Steve Carlton, Pedro Martinez, Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, Sandy Koufax), is connected to PED (Roger Clemens) or isn't yet eligible for the Hall (Clayton Kershaw, Max Scherzer, Justin Verlander).

Further, the only pitchers to have won two Cy Youngs before their age-29 season are Clemens, Maddux, Kershaw, Martinez, Seaver, Tim Lincecum, Johan Santana, Bret Saberhagan, Denny McLain and Skubal. 

With 54 wins, and 889 strikeouts in 766 ⅔ innings, Skubal needs to stockpile a ton more counting stats, but there's plenty of time for that. He's been the best pitcher in the world the last two seasons -- or at least neck-and-neck with the next guy we'll discuss -- and if he keeps that going for four or five more years, he'll be in great shape for the Hall of Fame."

Edited 2 hours ago by NorthWoods

[tiger2022]

WAR per 162 game average:

Keith Hernandez 4.7

Will Clark 4.6

Mark Teixeira 4.4

Jack Clark 4.3

John Olerud 4.2

Miguel Cabrera 3.9

Don Mattingly 3.8

Guess the one that is a sure fire 1st ballot HOFer and guess which ones have zero chance at making the HOF?

All the guys played at least 15 years.  And Kent has the same WAR per 162 games as Cabrera, 3.9

 

Craig Nettles, 68.0 WAR, 22 years, 4.1 per 162 games

Miguel Cabrera, 67.2 WAR, 21 years. 3.9 per 162 games.

Buddy Bell, 66.3 WAR, 18 years, 4.5 per 162 games.

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by tiger2022

[Tiger337]

19 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

I imagine Bonds hit all those home runs for him too.  

The dude still did what he did, no matter how much you don't want it to be true.  

Also, Kent hit 3rd and Bonds hit 4th.  Whitaker had an actual HOFer hitting after him.  That Bonds fellow couldn't even make it in the HOF.

 

Bonds batted third and Kent batted fourth in the years when Kent was getting a lot of RBI.  I just looked it up on b-ref to make sure I was remembering correctly.  I also remember they gave Kent credit for protecting Bonds which was silly. 

Kent did what he did...he was very good, but was overrated because writers love RBI.  He's not the worst Hall of Famer ever, but there are a couple of second basemen who should have been in before him.  One of them is Whitaker.  

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with Trammell batting behind Whitaker.  

 

 

 

[Tiger337]

43 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

WAR per 162 game average:

Keith Hernandez 4.7

Will Clark 4.6

Mark Teixeira 4.4

Jack Clark 4.3

John Olerud 4.2

Miguel Cabrera 3.9

Don Mattingly 3.8

Guess the one that is a sure fire 1st ballot HOFer and guess which ones have zero chance at making the HOF?

All the guys played at least 15 years.  And Kent has the same WAR per 162 games as Cabrera, 3.9

 

Craig Nettles, 68.0 WAR, 22 years, 4.1 per 162 games

Miguel Cabrera, 67.2 WAR, 21 years. 3.9 per 162 games.

Buddy Bell, 66.3 WAR, 18 years, 4.5 per 162 games.

 

 

WAR per 162 game average is not particulatly interesting and it kind of goes against the point of WAR which is a cumulative stat. 

Cabrera will be first ballot because of how great of a hitter he was at his peak.  I really wish his last 7 years were not trash, because he looked like he was going to be in the Hank Aaron or Frank Robinson class.  

Edited 2 hours ago by Tiger337

[tiger2022]

25 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

WAR per 162 game average is not particulatly interesting and it kind of goes against the point of WAR which is a cumulative stat. 

Cabrera will be first ballot because of how great of a hitter he was at his peak.  I really wish his last 7 years were not trash, because he looked like he was going to be in the Hank Aaron or Frank Robinson class.  

I just think WAR has a lot of drawbacks.  If someone hangs around amd is slightly above average for a long time, they will have a higher WAR.  I think Lou Whitaker should be in the HOF.  He was my favorite player growing up and I always tried to wear #1 whenever I had the chance.  But Kent was a much more feared hitter in my opinion.

Will Clark for example.  He retired at 36 and hit over .300 his last 4 seasons.  His last season he hit 21 HRs with a .319 average, .964 OPS.  4.0 WAR.  He just retired because he wanted to be with his family more.  He could have hung around for 4 or 5 years and racked up another 10.0 WAR possibly, but he didn't want to keep playing.  WAR punishes guys that don't hang around a long time because they have other things in life they want to do.

Kershaw has 80.9 WAR and Verlander has 81.7 WAR.  Who was a better pitcher?  Verlander is 5 years older than Kershaw.  One just retired and the other is playing another year

Cabrera should have retired at 34.  

Edited 1 hour ago by tiger2022

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Stormin said:

" You can get into the HOF if you hit 377 HRs, .862 OPS, 139 OPS+ and are a slow base runner and a poor fielder?  Why didn't the Tigers let me play second base?   -- Signed Norm Cash" 🙂

I don't even remember Cash as being a particularly poor fielder at 1B for that era - certainly was pretty fair on foul pop-ups. Granted -  If he'd been playing today he'd have been DH'ing in his over 35 yrs.

Edited 1 hour ago by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

33 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

Cabrera should have retired at 34.  

I could have seen him play maybe that year or a couple more because there was still a chance he might find a way to get healthy - the batting eye was still there. But the last two years were certainly terrible. Part of that was probably the Tigers also - they should have given him his money and put him on disability but they wanted to milk 3000 hits etc.

[gehringer_2]

51 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

Kershaw has 80.9 WAR and Verlander has 81.7 WAR.  Who was a better pitcher?  Verlander is 5 years older than Kershaw.  One just retired and the other is playing another year

But that is why the criteria for the Hall are soft. I think there is a certain value to the game in guys that have really long careers. It puts a larger body of fans into a common experience of having seen that player play - and I think that has a sort of intangible value beyond counting stats. And there has always been a certain tension around guys who are totally dominant but flame out and guys that very good for a very long time.  Koufax only has 53 WAR, but he was best most people that saw him had ever seen. 11 of Ryan's 27 seasons were at less than 2 WAR, so he built his total on a lot of mediocre seasons, but he was part of the fabric of the game for 27 freaking years.

I don't think there is a need for hard choices on those questions. It is after all, the Hall of 'Fame', not the Hall of 'Stat'. Coming back to Ryan, there were relatively few  seasons when he was actually among the best pitchers in baseball, but he was certainly the most famous pitcher in baseball for most of his era.

Edited 47 minutes ago by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, tiger2022 said:

Kershaw has 80.9 WAR and Verlander has 81.7 WAR.  Who was a better pitcher?  Verlander is 5 years older than Kershaw.  One just retired and the other is playing another year

 

Kershaw was the more dominant pitcher most years.  Verlander had more career value which is what WAR measures.   If you are more interested in peak value or dominance, then WAA (Wins Above Average) is one way to measure that.  Kershaw finishes ahead of him in that.  Pitchers are even harder to rank than hitters though because their role has changed so much throughout history.  

Edited 29 minutes ago by Tiger337

[Tenacious D]

I don’t buy the logic that because Whitaker isn’t in then Kent doesn’t belong either. Kent is a clear cut HOF on his own merit. Whitaker should be in, too, but the veterans committee have an attitude towards him.  I suspect they care very little for WAR and probably view it with disdain.  Lou was a bit squirrelly during his playing days and that probably rubbed his fellow players the wrong way. Hopefully this will be righted eventually.