Will Tigers Pony up for Skubal

[papalawrence]

I believe Harris will make longer offers to position players if that player fills a major need, and performs in step with Harris' philosophy. I don't see him going past 2, maybe 3 years to a pitcher. I did hear that he signed a personal 5-year membership with REI. So there's that.

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, papalawrence said:

I believe Harris will make longer offers to position players if that player fills a major need, and performs in step with Harris' philosophy. I don't see him going past 2, maybe 3 years to a pitcher. I did hear that he signed a personal 5-year membership with REI. So there's that.

I also believe he will get more aggressive to sign players when we are farther along the development curve as a team, which probably won't be until McGongle and Clark are up for good, at minimum, and maybe Briceno as well.

[1984Echoes]

23 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

The moves (or lack thereof) this offseason makes me believe that the Tigers do not think they are legit contenders - that they ...

The flipside of that is...

Maybe Harris feels this is not HIS team, not yet. It might be a contender (Harris could believe so) but he still doesn't feel the team is at a high enough level to make major commitments yet... not until they are molded more closely to his expectations (not much different from what you're saying, but... slightly).

Let's say in 2 years McGonigle, Clark, Hao Yu Lee & Briceno are up starting for the Tigers. Harris decides to keep Dingler and Keith and Wenceel Perez (4th outfielder)... Jobe, Melton, and several other pitchers... Rainer is in AA or AAA and on the cusp... What holes are still left on the team?

Has he already moved on from Tork/ Carpenter/ Greene?

He likes high contact/high OBP/with whatever power can be gained from those types of players... Would it now be HIS team (with several of those players graduated to Detroit?)

I think chas was pointing this out specifically a little bit earlier on the thread...

NOW if Tucker or Bregman or another "missing piece" to the team is available...

Do Ilitch and Harris say "Let's go for it" and offer the BIG contract?

THIS is the tell, to me, on Harris and Ilitch's future plan for the team. When it is HIS team and he's just missing "one guy", who is available in trade or FA.

Also, or alternatively... if he moves on from Carpenter/ Skubal/ Mize/ Tork... I'm not squeamish about that. ThI think that is much more telling on what this Org's philosophy will be.

I think at this point in time it's too early to say definitively one way or the other...

[oblong]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

I’m a little skeptical on a plan to make the playoffs, although I will acknowledge there was a different feeling at the beginning of August than there was at the end of August.  If this plan was August 31, ok, I don’t dispute it.

August 1?  They were almost double digit games out and behind a handful of teams at the beginning of the month.  Just traded away Flaherty.  They may have been dabbling in pitching chaos by then.  Hardly when you say we’ve got ‘em where we want ‘em.

But I was sucked into it at the end of August.  I remember thinking if they could take the series in San Diego, well, the charge was for real.  As it was, they took only the last game, and I still didn’t want to disbelieve.

I guess I’d love to know when that meeting was.  And depending on that answer, I’d like to know what was in their coffees.

It was pretty much immediately after the trade deadline. This isn’t an “after the fact” anecdote where they bragged. It was brought up at that time.  No they didn’t say “we have a plan to make the playoffs”.  I didn’t infer that. I brought it up because it was said that all the credit for that run goes to Hinch and the coaches, and not Harris, and I strenuously dispute that. I don’t think anything in this org happens in a silo.  It’s an integrated process and strategy between the front office and the manager and coaches, and the development staff. 

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

... but when you have a guy for whom every ground ball is going to be an adventure (Casty), I agree the best thing you can do is let him percolate at one spot (   ) and get as good as he can.

Inside those parentheses belongs ("the least damaging spot... IE: LF or 1B, or if necessary, simply DH even though there can be only 1 in a game...")

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I don't think of Torres as a "signing", per se. We gave Torres a qualifying offer possibly hoping he would turn it down and we would get the sandwich pick. Instead, Torres ended up being one of a record-breaking four players to take the offer, possibly because none of those guys wanted to sign a low-dollar multi-year deal going right in the teeth of a lockout.

Well, I meant the original signing, last season.  It took me by surprise, maybe some other fans too, IDK. But like I said, the reason I was so surprised was I didnt really think 2nd base was an area of need. I dont even remember hearing any rumors about him. Which is kinda unusual, we get all kinds of rumors on most quality players who are on the market. 

[1984Echoes]

56 minutes ago, papalawrence said:

I believe Harris will make longer offers to position players if that player fills a major need, and performs in step with Harris' philosophy. I don't see him going past 2, maybe 3 years to a pitcher. I did hear that he signed a personal 5-year membership with REI. So there's that.

That would be Tucker and Bregman, this year.

And he made one of those offers last year to Bregman.

But maybe this year he feels he needs to back off of that and wait for more of "his" type of players to percolate into the majors before he takes another swing. Or he's "once bitten, twice shy" with Boras/Bregman and doesn't want to get burned two years in a row by the same combination...

Dunno...

I'm just guessing.

[Sports_Freak]

32 minutes ago, oblong said:

It was pretty much immediately after the trade deadline. This isn’t an “after the fact” anecdote where they bragged. It was brought up at that time.  No they didn’t say “we have a plan to make the playoffs”.  I didn’t infer that. I brought it up because it was said that all the credit for that run goes to Hinch and the coaches, and not Harris, and I strenuously dispute that. I don’t think anything in this org happens in a silo.  It’s an integrated process and strategy between the front office and the manager and coaches, and the development staff. 

I remember hearing about that meeting. It was where they decided to use a pitching chaos method because we were out of starting pitchers. And like Lee said, we'll never see a situation like that work out again. I think I even saw the word "luck?" And I wouldn't argue with that...

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, tiger2022 said:

He was unwilling to part with any prospects for the stretch run.  His attitude seemed to be if the current team wins it will be in spite of me because I am keeping all the magic beans in the minors.  It seems he only cares how the team will do when "his" guys get up to the majors and last year was an oops...we made the playoffs somehow.  

I don't agree with his philosophy but obvious he has his cheerleaders and detractors on here.  He didn't do anything to improve the team at the beginning of last year and he hurt the team by picking up a perennial candidate for worst starter of the year in Paddock and a guy who has been washed up for 3 years in Morton at the trade deadline.  

Doesn't appear as if there is a priority to do anything for 2026 other than hope things somehow miraculously work out again.

But in a defense of Harris, what teams or players did he try to acquire? And which of our prospects were other teams seeking? I heard somebody say teams wanted Melton. No way would i have been happy trading him, we need all the pitching we can get. And his future looks bright. There's also 3 or 4 untouchable prospects who <may> turn into solid major leaguers who i would say are untouchables. If he just could have traded some of our lesser prospects for real pitching or hitting help, it may have gotten us to the ALCS or even the World Series. I guess we'll never know what really transpired.

[chasfh]

And what team wouldn't be all in on giving us real pitching or hitting help for a lesser prospect in return? 😉 

[1984Echoes]

42 minutes ago, oblong said:

... It was brought up at that time.  No they didn’t say “we have a plan to make the playoffs”.  I didn’t infer that. I brought it up because it was said that all the credit for that run goes to Hinch and the coaches, and not Harris, and I strenuously dispute that....

Ummm, yeah...

Context matters here.

And IIRC, the context was SPECIFICALLY: "How are you going to handle the innings needed to get through the season after trading away these pitchers?"

That has NOTHING to do with the playoffs.

That is simply Harris calling up minor league kids (for the most part... and they were Avila AAA guys... for the most part: Brieske, Wentz, Olson, Montero, Faedo, Foley, Hurter, Hanifee... did I miss anyone?) to fill innings or grabbing a waiver wire guy to fill some innings.

Sorry, but that is NOT "Harris leading the Tigers into the playoffs the past two years" (I think chas has put it exactly like that at least a few times...); which, IMO, is completely ridiculous.

Harris was simply trying to fill innings. By supplying minor league call ups that Hinch/Fetter needed. That Hinch & Fetter used those guys to the effect that those players got us into the playoffs is a credit to Hinch/Fetter, NOT Harris.

IMO.

Harris's "plan", with Hinch/Fetter, was pitching chaos because we were basically out of starters (after Skubal), and they all agreed that was the only way to get through the innings... But Hinch & Fetter had to successfully manage those players and put them into positions to succeed. Harris doesn't get credit for that... he only gets credit for supplying the pitchers needed (all those Avila guys they called up from AAA...) for Hinch and Fetter to implement chaos. It's not zero (for Harris). but it certainly isn't "LEADING them into the playoffs."

Again, that's ridiculous, IMO.

2024 (just on a WAG) was 98% Hinch/Fetter, 2% Harris.

IMO.

[1984Echoes]

27 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

I remember hearing about that meeting. It was where they decided to use a pitching chaos method because we were out of starting pitchers. And like Lee said, we'll never see a situation like that work out again. I think I even saw the word "luck?" And I wouldn't argue with that...

This (and Lee) are correct.

[oblong]

19 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Ummm, yeah...

Context matters here.

And IIRC, the context was SPECIFICALLY: "How are you going to handle the innings needed to get through the season after trading away these pitchers?"

That has NOTHING to do with the playoffs.

That is simply Harris calling up minor league kids (for the most part... and they were Avila AAA guys... for the most part: Brieske, Wentz, Olson, Montero, Faedo, Foley, Hurter, Hanifee... did I miss anyone?) to fill innings or grabbing a waiver wire guy to fill some innings.

Sorry, but that is NOT "Harris leading the Tigers into the playoffs the past two years" (I think chas has put it exactly like that at least a few times...); which, IMO, is completely ridiculous.

Harris was simply trying to fill innings. By supplying minor league call ups that Hinch/Fetter needed. That Hinch & Fetter used those guys to the effect that those players got us into the playoffs is a credit to Hinch/Fetter, NOT Harris.

IMO.

Harris's "plan", with Hinch/Fetter, was pitching chaos because we were basically out of starters (after Skubal), and they all agreed that was the only way to get through the innings... But Hinch & Fetter had to successfully manage those players and put them into positions to succeed. Harris doesn't get credit for that... he only gets credit for supplying the pitchers needed (all those Avila guys they called up from AAA...) for Hinch and Fetter to implement chaos. It's not zero (for Harris). but it certainly isn't "LEADING them into the playoffs."

Again, that's ridiculous, IMO.

2024 (just on a WAG) was 98% Hinch/Fetter, 2% Harris.

IMO.

I don’t want to be rude but…. What the hell are you talking about?  Who and what are you rebutting?? And you just pulled those numbers out of your ass. 

[Stormin]

What was the last contract longer than 2 or 3 years that worked out for the Tigers?

Javy - no

Rodriguez and Upton - The Tigers are fortunate they opted out

Zimmerman - no

Vmart's second contract - no

Miggy's second contract - no

Fielder contract - Tigers were wise to trade him before the crash

Second JV contract - yes

[Sports_Freak]

35 minutes ago, chasfh said:

And what team wouldn't be all in on giving us real pitching or hitting help for a lesser prospect in return? 😉 

Teams that have players that are going to walk at the end of the season. Most rental players don't fetch top overall prospects.

[casimir]

46 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

There's also 3 or 4 untouchable prospects who <may> turn into solid major leaguers who i would say are untouchables.

"<May> turn into solid major leaguers" doesn't sound untouchable to me.  Sweeney, Malloy, and Jung were in that category at one point, were they not?

[casimir]

20 minutes ago, Stormin said:

What was the last contract longer than 2 or 3 years that worked out for the Tigers?

Javy - no

Rodriguez and Upton - The Tigers are fortunate they opted out

Zimmerman - no

Vmart's second contract - no

Miggy's second contract - no

Fielder contract - Tigers were wise to trade him before the crash

Second JV contract - yes

Hinch?

[Sports_Freak]

38 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Ummm, yeah...

Context matters here.

And IIRC, the context was SPECIFICALLY: "How are you going to handle the innings needed to get through the season after trading away these pitchers?"

That has NOTHING to do with the playoffs.

That is simply Harris calling up minor league kids (for the most part... and they were Avila AAA guys... for the most part: Brieske, Wentz, Olson, Montero, Faedo, Foley, Hurter, Hanifee... did I miss anyone?) to fill innings or grabbing a waiver wire guy to fill some innings.

Sorry, but that is NOT "Harris leading the Tigers into the playoffs the past two years" (I think chas has put it exactly like that at least a few times...); which, IMO, is completely ridiculous.

Harris was simply trying to fill innings. By supplying minor league call ups that Hinch/Fetter needed. That Hinch & Fetter used those guys to the effect that those players got us into the playoffs is a credit to Hinch/Fetter, NOT Harris.

IMO.

Harris's "plan", with Hinch/Fetter, was pitching chaos because we were basically out of starters (after Skubal), and they all agreed that was the only way to get through the innings... But Hinch & Fetter had to successfully manage those players and put them into positions to succeed. Harris doesn't get credit for that... he only gets credit for supplying the pitchers needed (all those Avila guys they called up from AAA...) for Hinch and Fetter to implement chaos. It's not zero (for Harris). but it certainly isn't "LEADING them into the playoffs."

Again, that's ridiculous, IMO.

2024 (just on a WAG) was 98% Hinch/Fetter, 2% Harris.

IMO.

Well said. And fast forward a year and that same pitching chaos didn't seem to work as well so he brought in Morton and Paddack. Yeah, we still made the playoffs, and even defeated Cleveland, but we also blew a huge lead for the division. By one stinkin' game...

[Sports_Freak]

12 minutes ago, casimir said:

"<May> turn into solid major leaguers" doesn't sound untouchable to me.  Sweeney, Malloy, and Jung were in that category at one point, were they not?

They weren't Harris draft picks. 😁

It's not unusual for a new team GM (or POBO) to come in and clean house of all players and coaches from the previous regime. Harris should be given some credit for recognizing the talent already here and allowing AJ to use those players and get the most out of them.

[casimir]

20 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

They weren't Harris draft picks. 😁

It's not unusual for a new team GM (or POBO) to come in and clean house of all players and coaches from the previous regime. Harris should be given some credit for recognizing the talent already here and allowing AJ to use those players and get the most out of them.

My point still stands.  I wouldn’t consider might be major leaguers as untouchable.  Might be hall of fame players are untouchable, and even then they could be acquired under certain circumstances.

[buddha]

8 hours ago, chasfh said:

There is precedent for Baby Doc spending like Papa Doc—he gave 6/140 to Javy Baez on the mere say-so of Al Avila. Plus, it is well-reported that after hiring Harris, Chris invested millions into upgrading organizational infrastructure related to coaching, training, player development, and data science. These are not the actions of an industrialist who’s about to embark upon harvesting the business.

On the other hand, perhaps it’s not unreasonable to speculate that one of the reasons Ilitch is investing so much in infrastructure now is so he can cheap out on players later, choosing to cycle through a process of identifying and developing great young talent and then flipping them before having to pay them their due? Becoming more or less a Rays North, sometimes playing baseball instead of golf in October but never able to close the deal in November? This is a baseless speculation that comes out of my own imagination, an exercise in nothing more than covering bases, but it does seem consistent with some folks’ defeatist vision of how they see the Harris regime playing out.

In the end, though, I would think even you would have to admit that we can’t come to either conclusion as of today. The only way to know whether Ilitch/Harris will spend on talent at the moment of truth, or cheap out on it, is to live through an entire competitive cycle of build/compete/rebuild, and we are still only in the “build” portion of the current cycle. If we go through this window and learn, I’d guess by 2029 or 2030 or so, that Ilitch and Harris are content to cycle through talent, never pay anyone, never sign anyone or make audacious trades of potential for proof, and be content maybe making the playoffs every once in a while and winning a wild card series every blue moon, then I will sadly come to the same conclusion about Ilitch, Harris, and the Tigers that so many have already come to, and bonus, I will publicly admit right here that you were right all along and I have no idea what the hell I’m talking about. 😉

90% of the people on this board are going to think baby doc and papa doc originated as nicknames for the illitchs, having no clue where that actually comes from.

[casimir]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

90% of the people on this board are going to think baby doc and papa doc originated as nicknames for the illitchs, having no clue where that actually comes from.

I have no idea what it means or why it’s lasted this long.

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, Arlington said:

Did Sparky really move LaFlore because he was a bad role model for Whitaker?  I never heard that before.  I couldn't find anything that supports that idea.  It sounds more like group think grounded on stereotype to me.  

That is how I remember it being reported at the time.  If there was group think and steretyping involved, it sure didn't come from me.  Leflore was one of my all-time favorites and I hated that trade when it was made.  There are some articles like the one below which indicate Andersion thought he was a bad influence.  I can't find one that specifically mentions Whitaker.  

https://www.vintagedetroit.com/how-sparky-anderson-saved-the-tigers-from-ron-leflore/?srsltid=AfmBOop6xrg7CrDsEBNSWslE6sixI0ezfDv_X1SNOsJnMMNSbIMiiWXJ

[buddha]

6 minutes ago, casimir said:

I have no idea what it means or why it’s lasted this long.

papa doc and baby doc duvalier were father and son dictators in haiti for a very long time.  particularly ruthless fellows.

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

papa doc and baby doc duvalier were father and son dictators in haiti for a very long time.  particularly ruthless fellows.

Great.  So what’s the tie that binds to the Ilitches?  Father and son?