Will Tigers Pony up for Skubal

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'm seeing a more complaints that the cost is pricing middle class kids out of youth hockey.

My friend's son played 15-20 years ago so I imagine the price has only gone up. When I was a kid, in the early '70's, our city had an outdoor rink in a local park. There were pickup games every day and night. But back then, there were a lot more kids. 

[Tiger337]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

My son never had any interest in playing ice hockey but I had a really good friend and his son played. He used to tell me how expensive it was as well as all the very early morning practices. 

Youth hockey was crazy even when I was a kid.  My best friend played in a league and it used consume is life during the winter.  It didn't seem like fun.  I imagine is was pretty expensive too.

[Sports_Freak]

53 minutes ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I guess I wasn't really clear. I think with MLB players now making $60 mil/year and Hockey players maxing out at $10 mil per year, how do we get MLB to be reasonable? $25-35 mil is a lot of money and should be superstar per year money, but not $60. But how do we go back from this? 

This is the argument that will ruin baseball. Before these deals, I think there was a legit chance to have a collective bargaining agreement next year. Now, I don't see how it's possible..... How will the owners get a salary cap when some players are making $60 million a year? It's not really possible unless your cap is like $500+ million per year which is totally unrealistic.... I could see a cap being $300 or lower. But you got 28 players and one person making $60 million, that's 20% of your payroll. I guess if you can fit 25 other players under the $240 it'd be possible..... And then it turns into how much do minor leaguers play into the cap? It's turned into a real mess and rather quickly.....

People have been complaining about player salaries in baseball for over 100 years. And I agree, it's totally crazy. It really, really bums me out that there's a very real possibility that my favorite team is going to lose one of baseball's best pitchers. Tarik Skubal should be a Tiger for life, in a perfect world. But that doesn't mean I want the Tigers to spend $40m (or more) to keep him. That kind of money could really hurt a franchise.

[Sports_Freak]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Youth hockey was crazy even when I was a kid.  My best friend played in a league and it used consume is life during the winter.  It didn't seem like fun.  I imagine is was pretty expensive too.

5 AM practices, 60 miles away? No thsnks. The teams had to rent the least expensive rinks at the least expensive times. I get it but I'm just glad my son had no interest in it. He played Little League baseball, wrestled and played high school football. That was plenty to keep him (and us) busy...

[Edman85]

Tony Paul had a good interview with DD's former arbitration guy (and as I mentioned in another thread, good twitter follow) in audio form that was posted today. Interesting stuff I never really realized about the incentives of the arbitrators themselves. (It's a cushy job for them, so they don't want to piss either side off and lose it). He also mentioned, the dates of the hearings are not announced in the public so that the arbitrators aren't able to do research ahead of time on players as they come in. The first hearings could be this week. Alternates between Florida and Arizona, and it looks like the trials will be in Arizona this year (based on last year's datelines).

[oblong]

1 hour ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I guess I wasn't really clear. I think with MLB players now making $60 mil/year and Hockey players maxing out at $10 mil per year, how do we get MLB to be reasonable? $25-35 mil is a lot of money and should be superstar per year money, but not $60. But how do we go back from this? 

This is the argument that will ruin baseball. Before these deals, I think there was a legit chance to have a collective bargaining agreement next year. Now, I don't see how it's possible..... How will the owners get a salary cap when some players are making $60 million a year? It's not really possible unless your cap is like $500+ million per year which is totally unrealistic.... I could see a cap being $300 or lower. But you got 28 players and one person making $60 million, that's 20% of your payroll. I guess if you can fit 25 other players under the $240 it'd be possible..... And then it turns into how much do minor leaguers play into the cap? It's turned into a real mess and rather quickly.....

Why is that my problem to solve?  If the players don’t get it then the owners just pocket it.  Costs will not go down if salaries went down.  The NHL doesn’t bring in the revenue that MLB does. That’s why tbeir players make less. 

[Edman85]

Also, the $60M a year numbers are a bit inflated. The deferrals in some of these deals really drop the NPV of them significantly. The league has Tucker (4/240) at something like $57M factoring in deferrals. Ohtani's is on the order of $47M despite the (10/700) price tag.

I do anticipate Skubal getting nominally 50+ AAV. Deferrals would depend on jock taxes in the locale he signs. It does seem like teams are using signing bonus to get around player income taxes as well.

[gehringer_2]

24 minutes ago, oblong said:

Why is that my problem to solve?  If the players don’t get it then the owners just pocket it.  Costs will not go down if salaries went down.  The NHL doesn’t bring in the revenue that MLB does. That’s why tbeir players make less. 

 to pick up on the NHL/MLB comparison, Google tells me that the Wings generate ~$250M in revenue and the NHL salary cap is $95.5M, leaving the Wings ~$150M to cover non-salary expenses and pocket the rest. OTOH, the Tigers are estimated to have $325M in revenue and the luxury tax limit in $224M leaving ~$100M for expenses and profit, which are probably much higher for a baseball team than a hockey team.

But of course the Tigers are not near the lux tax limit, payroll last season was closer to $150M, which means they had roughly $170M left after payroll.

So if any/all of these numbers are anything near reality (and who really knows), I have a feeling it may not be a coincidence if the Tigers and Red Wings are operating with a relatively similar revenue-payroll number.

Edited yesterday at 01:37 AM by gehringer_2

[oblong]

That has me wondering what the operating cost of a typical red wing game vs Tiger game? I was once told by someone who worked in “event” at Comerica that having the stadium lights on for a vent in the Tiger club was a few thousand. That’s simply the DTE initial charge to turn them on.  Like the cost of ice and maintenance vs the turf and crew at Comerica.  
 

ChatGPT estimates $150-300K for NHL and $300K for MLB. 

[oblong]

But there’s obviously more organizational costs beyond stadium operations.  
 

do those revenue figures cover advertising in the stadium.  Signage. Etc?

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, oblong said:

That has me wondering what the operating cost of a typical red wing game vs Tiger game? I was once told by someone who worked in “event” at Comerica that having the stadium lights on for a vent in the Tiger club was a few thousand. That’s simply the DTE initial charge to turn them on.  Like the cost of ice and maintenance vs the turf and crew at Comerica.  

A baseball stadium is physically larger - more of it is outside where sun and weather take a their toll, it takes a bigger staff to operate, and most significantly, does not bring in anything like the outside rental income LCA does (this may be the most significant difference), A baseball team also has a bigger minor league operation, much more travel expense. So the amount of revenue left after all that is probably a lot more attractive for the Wings, which is likely what the difference it the estimated value of the two franchises reflects.

[Tenacious D]

44 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Also, the $60M a year numbers are a bit inflated. The deferrals in some of these deals really drop the NPV of them significantly. The league has Tucker (4/240) at something like $57M factoring in deferrals. Ohtani's is on the order of $47M despite the (10/700) price tag.

I do anticipate Skubal getting nominally 50+ AAV. Deferrals would depend on jock taxes in the locale he signs. It does seem like teams are using signing bonus to get around player income taxes as well.

I applaud your effort to steer the conversation back to Tigers baseball talk. I thought I had stumbled into the Wings forum.

[Edman85]

World Series (9-15M typically) vs. Stanley Cup TV ratings (2-5M) aren't even close. Stanley Cup and WNBA Finals (1-2M) are somewhat close, especially with women's ratings increasing significantly this decade....

Edited yesterday at 02:17 AM by Edman85

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

I applaud your effort to steer the conversation back to Tigers baseball talk. I thought I had stumbled into the Wings forum.

with the same guy is running both shows, the way one side is run can always inform what you can expect on the other side.

[Tenacious D]

33 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

with the same guy is running both shows, the way one side is run can always inform what you can expect on the other side.

Which Def Leppard lyrics are these?

[buddha]

23 hours ago, Edman85 said:

World Series (9-15M typically) vs. Stanley Cup TV ratings (2-5M) aren't even close. Stanley Cup and WNBA Finals (1-2M) are somewhat close, especially with women's ratings increasing significantly this decade....

plus about 4 million canadian viewers for stanley cup games.

[Edman85]

24 minutes ago, buddha said:

plus about 4 million canadian viewers for stanley cup games.

True, but if we are going to include Canada for this year's world series...

Edited 13 hours ago by Edman85

[buddha]

39 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

True, but if we are going to include Canada for this year's world series...

i was comparing more to the wnba.  world series does much better ratings than the stanley cup, any way you slice it.

(even if hockey is a much more exciting sport than baseball by a wide margin...)  🙂

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

(even if hockey is a much more exciting sport than baseball by a wide margin...)  🙂

apples to oranges though. It's like comparing Bach to Led Zeppelin, they function in different spaces.

The entertainment value in baseball doesn't follow as much from raw excitement like hockey, as from the slow tension builds the you get at times like a critical 10 pitch AB or as a pitcher starts losing command and digging himself a hole in a one run game, or whether a relief pitcher can work his way out of a 2 on no-out jam. Individual plays can be exciting but are more the icing on the cake than the main events in a baseball game. Baseball is more 'interesting' than 'exciting' - or at least a very different kind of 'exciting.'

Edited 10 hours ago by gehringer_2

[oblong]

When I visit family in TN, even with the Predators, I'm amazing at how little hockey is prevalent.  I've been down there the last few Aprils at at parties at my cousin's house I always find a wings game b/c of the playoff pushes. They've never watched.  It really is a niche sport nationally, the contracts with TV networks confirm that.  In my own family we watched hockey over football.  It was hockey, baseball, and nascar.

That said, in Detroit for my lifetime I'd say the biggest captures of this town's attention for sports were the '97 Wings and the Lions of a few years ago.  Nothing topped those for broad appeal and intensity.

 

[buddha]

8 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

apples to oranges though. It's like comparing Bach to Led Zeppelin, they function in different spaces.

The entertainment value in baseball doesn't follow as much from raw excitement like hockey, as from the slow tension builds the you get at times like a critical 10 pitch AB or as a pitcher starts losing command and digging himself a hole in a one run game, or whether a relief pitcher can work his way out of a 2 on no-out jam. Individual plays can be exciting but are more the icing on the cake than the main events in a baseball game. Baseball is more 'interesting' than 'exciting' - or at least a very different kind of 'exciting.'

well, i was mostly kidding.  to each their own with sports.  hockey is definitely more niche than baseball.

basketball is becoming more popular than baseball nowadays.

i could sit here and describe how soccer is the best sport to watch.  none of you would believe me but the rest of the world would...

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, buddha said:

.....is becoming more popular than baseball nowadays

one could write a book on all the likely reasons for this, most of which are bad, but it would have to start in a different forum.....😉

Short version would be that I don't think the state of organized youth baseball is enough to keep MLB from becoming more niche as well.

Edited 2 hours ago by gehringer_2

[oblong]

There's a huge cottage industry of youth baseball.  It's not like it was when we were kids... it seems to be more like hockey was when we were young.  Not the local little league run by the city.

 

[chasfh]

On 1/26/2026 at 7:35 PM, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I guess I wasn't really clear. I think with MLB players now making $60 mil/year and Hockey players maxing out at $10 mil per year, how do we get MLB to be reasonable? $25-35 mil is a lot of money and should be superstar per year money, but not $60. But how do we go back from this? 

No worries! The owners will come up with plenty of ideas to take money from the pockets of the best players and put it back in their own pockets where it belongs. 😉😁

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, buddha said:

i was comparing more to the wnba.  world series does much better ratings than the stanley cup, any way you slice it.

(even if hockey is a much more exciting sport than baseball by a wide margin...)  🙂

If “exciting” is the objective benchmark, then UCF has them both beat by an even wider margin.