buddha Posted July 5 Posted July 5 Just now, Shinzaki said: In both instances you're actually arguing that he mismanaged the player... if the wings had not traded for faulk and kept their pick this year, would you be happy if they traded it on draft night to anaheim or san jose for a first round pick in 2031? Quote
Shinzaki Posted July 5 Posted July 5 Pointless thought exercise...asking for an analysis that plays out in real time vs analysis of events that occurred years ago and came to conclusion recently. ask me about the pick and the Faulk trade in five years if you want an actual comparison Quote
lordstanley Posted July 5 Posted July 5 I believe the 1st round pick gets devalued the moment you use it to pick your player. Because you've already taken the choice of player out of the other team's hands - who knows whether other teams value JP Hurlbert as highly as the Wings do. So if you were going to trade Cossa for a 1st rounder, I would have preferred doing so a week before this year's for a 2026 1st or else on draft day for a 2027 1st. If a week before, would have been interesting to see what Larkin + a 2026 1st could have got you back in return (more than Larkin + Cossa would have, IMO). If on draft day, could use the 2027 1st to trade for an existing NHL talent now or anytime over the next few months. Quote
1984Echoes Posted July 5 Author Posted July 5 6 hours ago, Jason_R said: ... why did they pick him if they weren't going to let him play? What did he need to accomplish in order to get a start? Just utterly inexcusable talent management. I'm going to take a WAG here... That it was entirely personality. Which would burn me up big. Hasek wasn't a personality in the clubhouse? Did Stevie get put off by his personality and therefore say "never again" and therefore viewed Cossa with jaundiced lenses? Mantha got lots of run, Berggren, Rasmussen... guys who performed at a less-than-required level... constantly. Nice guys but... Talbot is down this past season and the decision is to burn out Gibson rather than calling up Cossa and giving him a 15-25 game run? It's just a WAG... but IMO, I think there was some personality conflict in there and even though Cossa may play a part in it... I think the intransigence or obtuseness was Stevie. I'll say it again... If Cossa starts putting up spectacular numbers for Utah... let's just say between .910-.925 save percentages over the next few years... I'm going to be ****ing ripped at SY that he mismanaged him so badly. I don't give a **** about player personality issues... If he can dominate, ala Hasek or Tyler Bertuzzi or Bob Probert or... You don't just squander a talent because they aren't your (Stevie's) idea of a choir boy. Quote
Jason_R Posted July 5 Posted July 5 Of course you can mismanage a pick and a player. Jesper was the consensus top goalie. If you are trading up for a goalie and don’t pick him, that is one thing, but it really shows confusion in the front office if you don’t have a clear plan for his development and you don’t give him a shot. And then, how was it you missed on Johnston? Keystone Kops stuff here. Quote
1984Echoes Posted July 5 Author Posted July 5 PS: And I'm happy to have JP Hurlbert on this team. It doesn't change the fact that Cossa was mismanaged. As to what G2 and others have said... WTF is Stevie's problem with letting these kids get chances in Detroit? It's almost as if he is actively blocking them to make certain they are overripe in Grand Rapids. There are some guys, who may struggle when they first get up into the NHL... but they have to go through that in order to become quality NHL guys. They're not learning anything additional in the AHL, there are no challenges for them there, and the only thing accomplished is burning up "prime" athletic years for a guy. Now, I'm just yapping off the cuff here and have no analysis/ statistics proving any of these points here... But it just feels like, as G2 says, the bar is so much lower for a FA a traded-for guy, someone who's not even performing that well (oh, let's call him Compher or Talbot or...) than for a Red Wings prospect to "earn" his chance. WTF did Cossa need to do to earn his chance last year? I mean seriously... Asking for a friend. Quote
1984Echoes Posted July 5 Author Posted July 5 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Jason_R said: ... And then, how was it you missed on Johnston? Keystone Kops stuff here. Missing on Johnston is a huge front office failure. It's a bit 20/20 hindsight though, because you are projecting 18-year-old kids... but they missed a critical one there. Edited July 5 by 1984Echoes Quote
buddha Posted July 5 Posted July 5 19 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: PS: And I'm happy to have JP Hurlbert on this team. It doesn't change the fact that Cossa was mismanaged. As to what G2 and others have said... WTF is Stevie's problem with letting these kids get chances in Detroit? It's almost as if he is actively blocking them to make certain they are overripe in Grand Rapids. There are some guys, who may struggle when they first get up into the NHL... but they have to go through that in order to become quality NHL guys. They're not learning anything additional in the AHL, there are no challenges for them there, and the only thing accomplished is burning up "prime" athletic years for a guy. Now, I'm just yapping off the cuff here and have no analysis/ statistics proving any of these points here... But it just feels like, as G2 says, the bar is so much lower for a FA a traded-for guy, someone who's not even performing that well (oh, let's call him Compher or Talbot or...) than for a Red Wings prospect to "earn" his chance. WTF did Cossa need to do to earn his chance last year? I mean seriously... Asking for a friend. whomever they picked at 23 you would be happy with, be honest. you were all excited about cossa for years... Quote
buddha Posted July 5 Posted July 5 they've been bad at drafting for a while now. maybe taking a skill guy like hurlbert at 23 indicates a change in philosophy? probably not considering the rest of the draft was more of the same old "high compete level" a/k/a: low ceiling, higher floor player theyve been taking for the last 7 years. you have to wonder if the issue is the drafting? or the development? or both? either way, it hasnt been good enough. given that the same folks are doing the drafting, i have low expectations it will change. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted July 6 Posted July 6 (edited) 8 hours ago, buddha said: they've been bad at drafting for a while now. maybe taking a skill guy like hurlbert at 23 indicates a change in philosophy? probably not considering the rest of the draft was more of the same old "high compete level" a/k/a: low ceiling, higher floor player theyve been taking for the last 7 years. you have to wonder if the issue is the drafting? or the development? or both? either way, it hasnt been good enough. given that the same folks are doing the drafting, i have low expectations it will change. It's rare for organizations to change before the people running them change. Not impossible, but not very likely. Edited July 6 by gehringer_2 Quote
Hongbit Posted July 6 Posted July 6 Rumors floating around that a few teams could offer sheer Edvinsson. That would be a nightmare scenario for Steve especially if it was loaded like the Carlson deal. Quote
buddha Posted July 6 Posted July 6 detroit can match any offer, but i wonder whether cheap ass stevie would do it? friedman reporting that carolina is sniffing around edvinsson. Quote
Shinzaki Posted July 6 Posted July 6 There had been rumors that SY was looking to offer sheet Pavel Mintyukov..but he signed a new deal yesterday. There was supposed to be an offer sheet on him imminently..no idea if was from Detroit or not. The unwillingness to give young players even a brief look in Detroit is mystifying...and annoying. Quote
slothfacekilla Posted July 6 Posted July 6 Detroit isn't scared to run young guys if they're ready (they literally just had a 20 year old seventh round pick play the entire season), I don't think it was deeper than they didn't think Cossa's feet and glove hand developed well enough to an NHL level. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted July 6 Posted July 6 15 minutes ago, slothfacekilla said: Detroit isn't scared to run young guys if they're ready (they literally just had a 20 year old seventh round pick play the entire season), I don't think it was deeper than they didn't think Cossa's feet and glove hand developed well enough to an NHL level. IDK - even he had weaknesses, an AHL all-star still had decent odds to give you overall what Talbot had, and seeing where he was exploited by NHL players could also be the most powerful motivator for him to internalize and then get to work on his deficits, whether in Det of after being sent back down after a look. Quote
lordstanley Posted July 6 Posted July 6 19 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Missing on Johnston is a huge front office failure. It's a bit 20/20 hindsight though, because you are projecting 18-year-old kids... but they missed a critical one there. Johnston was projected to go early in the 2nd round. Dallas reached. It was a gamble that paid off for them in spades. But I don’t think it reflects poorly on the Wings. Quote
Shinzaki Posted July 6 Posted July 6 You can go through every draft and play the "wow they missed on that guy" game Quote
Jason_R Posted July 6 Posted July 6 Yes but when you go back over the past dozen drafts and see that they’ve missed on two dozen outstanding players it raises questions. Quote
Shinzaki Posted July 6 Posted July 6 I am far too lazy to go back and look to see if the "mis rate" on guys taken after the Wings is egregiously high against a league average Quote
lordstanley Posted July 6 Posted July 6 This is the 2021 draft, 5 years out. More misses than hits in the bottom half of the 1st round, with only half a dozen of #17-32 playing 50+ games in the NHL so far. Unrealistic to be hard on the Wings for not snagging the one breakout star, Wyatt Johnston. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2021e.html Quote
buddha Posted July 6 Posted July 6 6 minutes ago, lordstanley said: This is the 2021 draft, 5 years out. More misses than hits in the bottom half of the 1st round, with only half a dozen of #17-32 playing 50+ games in the NHL so far. Unrealistic to be hard on the Wings for not snagging the one breakout star, Wyatt Johnston. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2021e.html you dont criticize them for missing the one star, you do criticize them for 1) drafting a goalie that high; 2) if you do that, passing on the consensus #1 goalie in wellstedt; 3) your pick is the ONLY pick in the top 20 to not play any games. in 5 years. that's a massive miss. btw, us cossa doubters are here to take all your apologies (not you, stanley, they know who they are, lol). 2 Quote
Shinzaki Posted July 6 Posted July 6 You really can't call Cossa a bust...he hasn't even played yet Quote
lordstanley Posted July 6 Posted July 6 42 minutes ago, buddha said: you dont criticize them for missing the one star, you do criticize them for 1) drafting a goalie that high; 2) if you do that, passing on the consensus #1 goalie in wellstedt; 3) your pick is the ONLY pick in the top 20 to not play any games. in 5 years. that's a massive miss. btw, us cossa doubters are here to take all your apologies (not you, stanley, they know who they are, lol). Yes, and I've made all three of those criticisms. Goalies' development is so unpredictable. We simply don't know enough about them at 18 years of age. I wouldn't pick a goalie prior to the 3rd round. Quote
buddha Posted July 6 Posted July 6 13 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: You really can't call Cossa a bust...he hasn't even played yet he's been a bust for detroit. can you at least agree to that? Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.