05/26/2026 6:40p EDT Los Angeles Angels at Detroit Tigers

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

"Being a Harris lackey". "Lackey" is a pejorative name. I did not call you any kind of name at all, and certainly nothing like this. Please, just stop already.

How about Harris slappy?  Is that more acceptable?  😉

[Tiger337]

4 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

You mean to tell me that making a trade mid-season is so rare and unheard of that Harris can be excused for not doing his freaking job? Being a Harris lackey has been taken to a whole new level...

[Crazy Cat Gentleman]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

Silas Weir Mitchell plays for the Red Sox?

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Gentleman said:

Silas Weir Mitchell plays for the Red Sox?

John Lackey

[Crazy Cat Gentleman]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

John Lackey

practically indistinguishable from Monroe on Grimm.

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, Shelton said:

Yeah, that’s true, although Riley did catch the ball hit to him. I do wonder how it was him and not Vierling that got to him. 
 

Whether or not AJ should have pulled him because he gave up a fly ball that was caught in order to use an entirely different pitcher that probably isn’t good, I’m not so sure. 

IDK, that ball Riley caught had triple written all over it. Pretty amazing catch, IDK what the stat page says about it. I would say it was a harder catch than the one Perez messed up, but that just by eye. Either way, Vest wasn't fooling many of the hitters and Hinch should have saw that. Again, with a rested bullpen, there's not much of an excuse.

[Netnerd]

8 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Mob mentality.

Bush league.

[Shelton]

13 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

IDK, that ball Riley caught had triple written all over it. Pretty amazing catch, IDK what the stat page says about it. I would say it was a harder catch than the one Perez messed up, but that just by eye. Either way, Vest wasn't fooling many of the hitters and Hinch should have saw that. Again, with a rested bullpen, there's not much of an excuse.

I think to say he was not “fooling” guys, and or that he was not the right guy to start the 8th inning, isn’t all that easy to defend. It was definitely a nice catch by Riley. Certainly could have been a triple if it wasn’t caught but maybe it also looked amazing because Riley got a bad jump or is slow. I don’t think that means that Vest is the wrong guy to face the next batter because of it.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, it’s not an easy call, but you seem to be really committed to this position. Guys are going to give up fly balls. That’s not a bad thing. Fly balls are the batted ball most often converted into an out. They can hurt you more if they aren’t caught, of course. But the mere act of giving them up isn’t bad. 
 

But you got me curious regarding whether we could determine if he was fooling anyone. Right before Riley caught a high fly ball, Vest got Soler to K swinging with runners on the corners and one out. I’m sure soler would have liked to hit a fly ball to the track with a guy on third, but maybe he was fooled. 
 

In the 8th, vest got Adell to ground out to start the inning. Gave up a single to right. Then got a ground out to second that wasn’t hit hard enough to be a double play. Then he got a fly ball that should have been caught to end the inning. He was at 16 total pitches in the game when Wenceel missed that catch for what would have been Vest’s fifth out in six batters. 
 

He then got the following batter, Neto, to swing at the 9th pitch of the at bat low and off the plate, a soft liner that hit him on the ass and would have been caught by McGonigle or Lee.  
 

You want to argue that Hinch should have had someone else up and available to face trout or Grissom, that’s fine, although I’m not sure that holton, finnegan, or Kenley would have been better matchups.

[gehringer_2]

9 minutes ago, Shelton said:

 

You want to argue that Hinch should have had someone else up and available to face trout or Grissom, that’s fine, although I’m not sure that holton, finnegan, or Kenley would have been better matchups.

OTOH - there were other reasons to defend making  a move  sooner - he was at 54 pitches and 30 in the inning so he was over exteneded, his FB was down off his better level, and his strike throwing was faltering as he got deeper in the inning.

Edited yesterday at 01:27 PM by gehringer_2

[Shelton]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

OTOH - there were other reasons to defend making  a move  sooner - he was at 54 pitches and 30 in the inning so he was over exteneded, his FB was down off his better level, and his strike throwing was faltering as he got deeper in the inning.

I’m sorry but no. Vest threw a total of 34 pitches (is 54 a typo?). He was at 16 total after Wenceel dropped that ball. He was at 25 total after Neto hit him in the ass. He threw 6 pitches in the 7th and got two outs. So he was at 19 in the inning before facing trout. 
 

Sure, by the time it became 34 total and 28 in the inning (the point he was indeed pulled) you probably don’t want to go any further, but I think he is probably still the guy you want lined up to face trout and Grissom when he is at 25 total and 19 in the inning.
 

 

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, Shelton said:

I think to say he was not “fooling” guys, and or that he was not the right guy to start the 8th inning, isn’t all that easy to defend. It was definitely a nice catch by Riley. Certainly could have been a triple if it wasn’t caught but maybe it also looked amazing because Riley got a bad jump or is slow. I don’t think that means that Vest is the wrong guy to face the next batter because of it.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, it’s not an easy call, but you seem to be really committed to this position. Guys are going to give up fly balls. That’s not a bad thing. Fly balls are the batted ball most often converted into an out. They can hurt you more if they aren’t caught, of course. But the mere act of giving them up isn’t bad. 
 

But you got me curious regarding whether we could determine if he was fooling anyone. Right before Riley caught a high fly ball, Vest got Soler to K swinging with runners on the corners and one out. I’m sure soler would have liked to hit a fly ball to the track with a guy on third, but maybe he was fooled. 
 

In the 8th, vest got Adell to ground out to start the inning. Gave up a single to right. Then got a ground out to second that wasn’t hit hard enough to be a double play. Then he got a fly ball that should have been caught to end the inning. He was at 16 total pitches in the game when Wenceel missed that catch for what would have been Vest’s fifth out in six batters. 
 

He then got the following batter, Neto, to swing at the 9th pitch of the at bat low and off the plate, a soft liner that hit him on the ass and would have been caught by McGonigle or Lee.  
 

You want to argue that Hinch should have had someone else up and available to face trout or Grissom, that’s fine, although I’m not sure that holton, finnegan, or Kenley would have been better matchups.

But there's a huge difference in a fly ball over a lined rocket at 100+ MPH or whatever. Even that ball Perez didnt catch wasn't a lazy fly ball, it was hit hard. And Vest's velocity was down just enough to allow a weak hitting Angel team to square up pitches. Yes, he shoulda been out of the inning, but he wasn't. Hinch shoulda made a move before Trout even walked. After Trout walked? Not making a move was/is indefensible.

[Shelton]

43 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

But there's a huge difference in a fly ball over a lined rocket at 100+ MPH or whatever. Even that ball Perez didnt catch wasn't a lazy fly ball, it was hit hard. And Vest's velocity was down just enough to allow a weak hitting Angel team to square up pitches. Yes, he shoulda been out of the inning, but he wasn't. Hinch shoulda made a move before Trout even walked. After Trout walked? Not making a move was/is indefensible.

Eh, I guess I just disagree that the difference between an innocent fly ball and a 100 EV fly ball rocket is all that different. A couple degrees difference in launch angle can have a big effect. It is not reasonable to expect that a pitcher is going to be able to completely avoid giving up 100 EV, and it certainly isn’t predictable based on what happened in the prior at bat. 
 

Anyway, I think it is definitely defensible to let him face trout and/or Grissom, but it’s also defensible to have thought a different option was a better bet to get trout or Grissom out. We don’t really know exactly what their matchup numbers suggested. I suspect Vest matched up best and that was the main reason he stayed in, especially given that he was basically cruising (bad defense and bad luck notwithstanding).
 

Holton gave up a 100 EV home run to Jose Siri in the 9th, so obviously shouldn’t have been him. Finnegan gave up a 100 mph rocket to Oswald Pereza yesterday so he shouldn’t be an option. Kenley gave up 2 rockets in his last game against Baltimore on Sunday, one of which was a 111 mph walk off, so no way.

[Sports_Freak]

48 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Eh, I guess I just disagree that the difference between an innocent fly ball and a 100 EV fly ball rocket is all that different. A couple degrees difference in launch angle can have a big effect. It is not reasonable to expect that a pitcher is going to be able to completely avoid giving up 100 EV, and it certainly isn’t predictable based on what happened in the prior at bat. 
 

Anyway, I think it is definitely defensible to let him face trout and/or Grissom, but it’s also defensible to have thought a different option was a better bet to get trout or Grissom out. We don’t really know exactly what their matchup numbers suggested. I suspect Vest matched up best and that was the main reason he stayed in, especially given that he was basically cruising (bad defense and bad luck notwithstanding).
 

Holton gave up a 100 EV home run to Jose Siri in the 9th, so obviously shouldn’t have been him. Finnegan gave up a 100 mph rocket to Oswald Pereza yesterday so he shouldn’t be an option. Kenley gave up 2 rockets in his last game against Baltimore on Sunday, one of which was a 111 mph walk off, so no way.

I guess the totally rested bullpen, sitting unused, was my biggest issue. Hinch has always mostly used new RP to start a clean inning and he didnt in this game. Yes, it may have been matchup issues but the results speak for themselves. Like you said,  a different pitcher may have given it up but Vest did give it up. Playing that game, Finnegan may have had a clean inning. We'll never know....

[chasfh]

Or Finnegan may have walked the first three guys then given up a slam. We’ll never know.

In a 162-game season, there are frequently considerations that come up during a game about how to use the bullpen, and more exactly this pitcher in this exact circumstance, other than he’s struggling at this moment and must be replaced. And here I am going to push back some on the fully-rested bullpen narrative. The Tigers did have the day off Monday, but all four of their best bullpen options pitched on Sunday, three of them over 20 pitches. Vest was the only one who didn’t pitch at least 20, so that’s likely why he was the one who got the call on Tuesday. He came in with one out in the seventh and got two outs on six pitches. Obviously he was coming back out for the eighth.

For the first three pitches in the eighth he got a ground out and gave up a single. That’s nine pitches. Then he got Walton on five pitches. Now he’s at 14 pitches, and is now maybe one pitch from starting the ninth on 15 pitches with five outs under his belt, or handing it off to one of the other three.

Then O’Hoppe bangs the double over Wenceel’s head on the second pitch. We are now still up one. Vest is still only at 16 pitches, and again, potentially one pitch from handing the game off. At this point, Hinch’s main consideration is probably stretching Vest as much as possible to keep the other back of the bullpen guys fresh for the rest of the series and this weekend.

The next two hitters are the disaster. Nine pitches to Neto results in a single, six pitches to Trout in a walk. Now there’s a real decision to make with 31 pitches thrown by Vest. Bring in Holton now to face Grissom? Or go to Vest for one last batter and hopes he gets you to the ninth with the lead? We all have 20-20 hindsight on what happened there.

I do think it’s fair to criticize Hinch for sticking with Vest for one more hitter. He’d already given up a run, had put the tying and lead runs on base, and thrown 15 pitches just to the previous two guys. It’s fair to expect another guy to come in at that point. The one thing we don’t know is what condition the other three guys were. Hinch may have seen up close that some of the other three  were gassed or something and would not be great options if he can avoid it. And I’m pretty sure guys like De Jesus and Vanasco were not in consideration to relieve. So, cross your fingers and hope Vest gets you to the ninth with the lead.

Well, we saw what happened. The grand slam, Hinch’s hand was forced, and here comes Holton in  to relieve now down three. And Holton wasn’t perfect either—he gave up a home run as well. But the decision on Vest was made, and it backfired on us.

I think we can criticize Hinch for staying with Vest one batter too long. That’s fair. But I myself wouldn’t criticize Hinch for not yanking Vest after the O’Hoppe double, when we still had the lead and he was still on only 16 pitches. A big league manager has to manage his roster, his bullpen, for the full 162-game schedule, not just for this inning, just for this batter, right now. That’s what Hinch was doing, and speaking only for myself, I can’t fault that overall strategy, even if it sometimes bites us on the ass.

 

[gehringer_2]

6 hours ago, Shelton said:

(is 54 a typo?)

yes. But anything over 25 is getting deep for a max effort reliever. It's the classic argument over the better pitcher tired vs the worse pitcher fresh. As Chasfh says, we'll never know but it's certainly a fair game arguable point.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

I think we can criticize Hinch for staying with Vest one batter too long

I think every manager ends up suffering from some level of decision paralysis trying to manage a bad BP. . We had the same discussions when Leyland was trying to manage with a bad BP. I think it's human nature to be more reluctant to take an action that goes bad as opposed to hoping a previous decision doesn't need to be second guessed. And that's pretty much true in all aspects of decision making in life. Some managers - Hinch included, put a lot of emphasis on not 'wasting' guys warming up, which is also part of it. Hard to know over the course of a season how that bias toward not 'wasting' warm-ups plays out in total wins and losses or total injury rates (since no-one seems to understand pitching injures anyway) - like a lot of things it probably depends on the particular pitchers in the mix.

Edited 19 hours ago by gehringer_2