Religion

[MIguy]

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

So what you're telling me is that I MUST agree with you, if we have a difference of opinion, otherwise I am arrogant and dismissive? I MUST accept someone else's beliefs, NO MATTER WHAT, otherwise I am arrogant and dismissive?

Because you understand that I am NOT going to change my opinion, no matter how upset you get. I am NOT going to acknowledge the existence of a god when I know there is none. I DO dismiss the existence of any god, as upset as you want to get about that.

But let's flip that on its head. I have offered a hundred (just a WAG) different opinions than yours. Why I believe there is no god. And in YOUR arrogance and YOUR dismissiveness, you've dismissed EVERY thing I've said... with: But it's God. 

It's pretty comical how hypocritical believers are. They do EXACTLY what you accuse me of doing. Arrogantly, and dismissively. You have been dismissing my every post for the past 3 pages.

My recommendation: Look in the mirror.

 

But that's EXACTLY what you're proposing. That some magical creature called "god", a creature CREATED in the imagination of humankind, is the MAGICAL CREATOR of science.

You don't have to agree with anyone.  Just try to understand what people are saying and don't go off on a caffeine laced rant every time someone questions you

You are beginning to sound like Trump with all your random caps.  

 

[MIguy]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

You don't have to agree with anyone.  Just try to understand what people are saying and don't go off on a caffeine laced rant every time someone questions you

You are beginning to sound like Trump with all your random caps.  

 

Speaking of Trump, ever notice how the more vocal someone is about their belief in god, the more likely they are to be an election denier, a Jan 6th denier, a Covid denier, a climate change denier and basically just a conspiracy theorist about everything?

Yeah, I'm sure that's just a coincidence.  

Edited December 3, 2023 by MIguy

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, MIguy said:

Speaking of Trump, ever notice how the more vocal someone is about their belief in god, the more likely they are to be an election denier, a Jan 6th denier, a Covid denier, a climate change denier and basically just a conspiracy theorist about everything?

Yeah, I'm sure that's just a coincidence.  

Yes, I have noticed that...

But I also know many religious people that are more reasonable than that.  

[1984Echoes]

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

... and don't go off on a caffeine laced rant every time someone questions you

You are beginning to sound like Trump with all your random caps.  

I don't need caffeine, I'm already hyper. Hyper since I was 2 years old. Just something I have to live with.

The all-caps aren't RANDOM, they are on specific words that I am emphasizing. Maybe that's just being hyper, maybe i did have a little bit of caffeine tonight...

I do seem to be on speed dial tonight but... NO relation to Trump. Don't even try that ****!!!

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I do seem to be on speed dial tonight but... NO relation to Trump. Don't even try that ****!!!

😃

[MIguy]

But he's the chosen one!

 

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, MIguy said:

But he's the chosen one!

 

So grotesque....

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

Free will? I make my own choices, every day.

How you square your ability to make decisions of your own everyday when every chemical process in your brain is completely determined by the laws of physics completely independently of whatever "you" believe your existence to be? As far as your brain chemistry goes -  there is no "you". "You" as a physical entity able to 'make a decision' simply don't exist.

Edited December 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

How you square your ability to make decisions of your own everyday when every chemical process in your brain is completely determined by the laws of physics completely independently of whatever "you" believe your existence to be? As far as your brain chemistry goes -  there is no "you". "You" simply don't exist.

Answer:

My brain has the "ability" to INTERPRET data inputs.

Yes, I get that it's only a biochemical reaction. And the reaction itself does not recognize me as a living, thinking being since, it's only a biochemical reaction.

But through learning language, our brain interprets desires, feelings, dreams, thought, etc. An animal, for the most part, does not think, it only reacts out of instinct. Also biochemically driven. Hunger. Thirst. Find safety (don't get eaten).

IE: Visually, biochemically, there is a computer screen in front of me. But how do I KNOW that there is a computer screen in front of me, (defined by the "Me" that is "Me")? Who says, or why, should I CALL it a computer screen? And not a cute little puppy dog winking it's lights and what appears to be some kind of alphabetical characters mysteriously popping up in its "eyes"?

Same as in my defining my dreams, what I feel (Love, consternation, or otherwise), and my ability to make decisions.

By understanding language, and how those dreams fit within that language, how the biochemical processes creating my "feelings" (defined biochemically in my brain under "language", that I have learned, and stored, biochemically, in my brain cells) as one feeling or another... And if I make a grilled cheese sandwich today instead of an egg salad sandwich, it's because of my decision to do so. It may be driven by biochemical instincts (hunger), but language allows my brain to "Talk to itself" (biochemical processes utilizing language), and, again, biochemically, and through the use of language my brain can "tell me" that "I'm getting really tired of egg salad... let's try a grilled cheese with some of that smoked ham and some tomato slices. Oh, and add a few of those fresh basil leaves you just got from the store yesterday...".

Short story: Language opens up a vast ability to interpret biochemical reactions, without even realizing those reactions are there, in so many different ways. It's what makes us more "human" than any other ability. And what allows me to be "Me". And to dream. And to interpret those dreams. And to make my own decisions.

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Answer:

My brain has the "ability" to INTERPRET data inputs.

Yes, I get that it's only a biochemical reaction. And the reaction itself does not recognize me as a living, thinking being since, it's only a biochemical reaction.

But through learning language, our brain interprets desires, feelings, dreams, thought, etc. An animal, for the most part, does not think, it only reacts out of instinct. Also biochemically driven. Hunger. Thirst. Find safety (don't get eaten).

IE: Visually, biochemically, there is a computer screen in front of me. But how do I KNOW that there is a computer screen in front of me, (defined by the "Me" that is "Me")? Who says, or why, should I CALL it a computer screen? And not a cute little puppy dog winking it's lights and what appears to be some kind of alphabetical characters mysteriously popping up in its "eyes"?

Same as in my defining my dreams, what I feel (Love, consternation, or otherwise), and my ability to make decisions.

By understanding language, and how those dreams fit within that language, how the biochemical processes creating my "feelings" (defined biochemically in my brain under "language", that I have learned, and stored, biochemically, in my brain cells) as one feeling or another... And if I make a grilled cheese sandwich today instead of an egg salad sandwich, it's because of my decision to do so. It may be driven by biochemical instincts (hunger), but language allows my brain to "Talk to itself" (biochemical processes utilizing language), and, again, biochemically, and through the use of language my brain can "tell me" that "I'm getting really tired of egg salad... let's try a grilled cheese with some of that smoked ham and some tomato slices. Oh, and add a few of those fresh basil leaves you just got from the store yesterday...".

Short story: Language opens up a vast ability to interpret biochemical reactions, without even realizing those reactions are there, in so many different ways. It's what makes us more "human" than any other ability. And what allows me to be "Me". And to dream. And to interpret those dreams. And to make my own decisions.

that's all fine but there is no mechanism for conscious volition in any of that. Your arguments here are basically that our sense of ourselves is basically a fallacy - that consciousness is a self-delusion. Which is perfectly possible - I only raise the point to argue that there are some pretty fundamental things about our immediate existence that we do a lot of glossing for.

Edited December 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

.... Your arguments here are basically that our sense of ourselves is basically a fallacy - that consciousness is a self-delusion...

Isn't that what YOU'RE saying?

Tell me if I'm wrong... but it seems like you are demanding the basis for conscious volition and if I DON'T have that basis then you are saying consciousness is a self-delusion. As a statement of fact. As... YOUR statement.

Or I'm misinterpreting your argument.

Because I do NOT believe that consciousness is a self-delusion... and in fact I GAVE the BASIS for conscious volition, which is language.

My basis for my consciousness is language, which allows me to DEFINE myself, in relation to a dog, as to my location within my house, as to the background sound of the Michigan game (and that I know they are playing Iowa and are leading 20-0...), etc., etc. I am CONSCIOUS of my desire to go to bed soon, biochemical process or otherwise, and I have the ability of language to DEFINE that, to be AWARE of that, and to make a conscious decision as to when I will turn off the TV and actually drag myself into bed.

Do you disagree that language is the basis for consciousness? If not, what is your interpretation, or basis, for conscious volition?

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Not to be rude, but your arrogance and dismissiveness of everybody that disagrees with you is laughable.  

A+.  He is cruising for a time out here, and I don't think it would be his first.

[1984Echoes]

7 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

A+.  He is cruising for a time out here, and I don't think it would be his first.

Being knowledgeable and self-assured is cause for a time out?

YOU'RE the one calling me arrogant and dismissive (and Lee) because you don't like my opinions. 

YOU'RE the one PERSONALLY ATTACKING me.

[Tiger337]

 

[Jim Cowan]

18 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Being knowledgeable and self-assured is cause for a time out?

YOU'RE the one calling me arrogant and dismissive (and Lee) because you don't like my opinions. 

YOU'RE the one PERSONALLY ATTACKING me.

I already said, twice I think, that I don't disagree with your opinions on this topic.  Could you stop, take a deep breath, and try to let that sink in.

[1984Echoes]

But YOU'RE asking me to be banned for two weeks because you don't like my opinions, or rather, how I am stating them.

That says a whole LOT about you Jim Cowan.

Edited December 3, 2023 by 1984Echoes

[1984Echoes]

11 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

 

Are you telling me that I'm stupid Lee?

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

I already said, twice I think, that I don't disagree with your opinions on this topic.  Could you stop, take a deep breath, and try to let that sink in.

I also agree more than disagree with him on this topic.  It's his attitude.

 

[1984Echoes]

Just now, Tiger337 said:

I also agree more than disagree with him on this topic.  It's his attitude.

 

There's nothing wrong with self-confidence as an attitude.

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Are you telling me that I'm stupid Lee?

I think you have above average intelligence.    But not elite !!!  😀

Edited December 3, 2023 by Tiger337

[1984Echoes]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

I think you have above average intelligence.  

Your prior post is ridicule.

I don't equate ridicule of my statement as the same as believing I have above average intelligence.

It was ridicule.

Is this one of the attitudes you don't like, BTW...?

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

But YOU'RE asking me to be banned for two weeks because you don't like my opinions, or rather, how I am stating them.

That says a whole LOT about you Jim Cowan.

It says everything about me.  Thank you. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Jim Cowan

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

Isn't that what YOU'RE saying?

Tell me if I'm wrong... but it seems like you are demanding the basis for conscious volition and if I DON'T have that basis then you are saying consciousness is a self-delusion. As a statement of fact. As... YOUR statement.

Or I'm misinterpreting your argument.

Because I do NOT believe that consciousness is a self-delusion... and in fact I GAVE the BASIS for conscious volition, which is language.

My basis for my consciousness is language, which allows me to DEFINE myself, in relation to a dog, as to my location within my house, as to the background sound of the Michigan game (and that I know they are playing Iowa and are leading 20-0...), etc., etc. I am CONSCIOUS of my desire to go to bed soon, biochemical process or otherwise, and I have the ability of language to DEFINE that, to be AWARE of that, and to make a conscious decision as to when I will turn off the TV and actually drag myself into bed.

Do you disagree that language is the basis for consciousness? If not, what is your interpretation, or basis, for conscious volition?

Mine is a different question. You are talking about the framework around which you hang the construction of self-identity. One of the hats I have worn is more or less as a chemist and what I'm talking about is how a thought in your mind turns into an action in physical/temporal space. How does a process in what we call conciousness - which cannot be located in the physical domain,  create the chemical event in the physical domain that cascades into the creation of causation in the physical world? Sure we know how an axon works, but not how you make an axon fire by 'making a decision'. We think we know that mind affects matter, we believe volition exists nearly universally, but we cannot locate mind in matter and whatever the interface is eludes our understanding.

Edited December 3, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Your prior post is ridicule.

I don't equate ridicule of my statement as the same as believing I have above average intelligence.

It was ridicule.

Is this one of the attitudes you don't like, BTW...?

I wasn't ridicuing your intelligence.  I was poking fun at your assertion of knowledge and self confidence.  

Edited December 3, 2023 by Tiger337