01/06/2023 8:00 EST Detroit Pistons vs San Antonio Spurs

[casimir]

   

Detroit Pistons vs San Antonio Spurs

[buddha]

never liked that guy.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

never liked that guy.

That's why I added him to the post.

You're welcome.

[Deleterious]

 

[buddha]

of course they are.

[Betrayer]

Vecenie struggles to evaluate Piston's rookies amidst "flawed process."

 

 

[buddha]

good loss.

[Hart]

The Vecenie video is a good watch.  Those guys are hard to evaluate because of the mess that the Pistons are this year.  But I think Ivey's defensive issues are very basic technique issues and there is an element of effort involved with those issues.  It's extremely concerning to me.  

On offense, I do like the ball in Ivey's hands the more I watch him play.  The superior athleticism just makes it easier for him  compared to watching Cade trying to beat guys off the dribble.  The decision making needs a lot of work but having the physical skills to beat other NBA athletes is a large part of the equation.      

[1984Echoes]

4 hours ago, Hart said:

The Vecenie video is a good watch.  Those guys are hard to evaluate because of the mess that the Pistons are this year.  But I think Ivey's defensive issues are very basic technique issues and there is an element of effort involved with those issues.  It's extremely concerning to me.  

On offense, I do like the ball in Ivey's hands the more I watch him play.  The superior athleticism just makes it easier for him  compared to watching Cade trying to beat guys off the dribble.  The decision making needs a lot of work but having the physical skills to beat other NBA athletes is a large part of the equation.      

I've said this before:

Ivey should be the primary and Cade the secondary.

For a very specific reason: Ivey can break down the defense. And once he does that, he is either scoring on the inside or passing it out to get the ball in Cade's hands. Ivey doesn't have to do this each and every play. Let's call it 50/50 just for example/ illustrative purposes (reality would probably be different...): 50% of the plays the ball starts with Ivey but swings around to Cade in which he is initiating a scoring play (for himself or getting the ball into someone else's hands...); and 50% Ivey breaks down the defense for a scoring attempt or, if closed off, passes out to get the ball into Cade's hands again to initiate a scoring attempt. This is a gross simplification... but:

On those plays that Ivey breaks down the defense and had to pass out of a double-team or collapsing defense: Cade is now getting the ball into his hands with that broken down defense. He has a MAJOR advantage at this point with his scoring ability/ passing ability/ and court vision.

Again, I've grossly simplified this: But I think starting with Ivey as primary and breaking down defenses and Cade as secondary (in multiple different ways) gives the O several huge advantages, including Cade & his skills specifically.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by 1984Echoes

[Betrayer]

I honestly think the best outcome is if they can grow to be a back and forth thing like Tatum and Brown, where either can initiate the offense (in very different ways), either can play off-ball, and you can stagger them so one of them is on the court at all times.

The bigger problem is that I'm not sure either of them projects to be more than average defensively. And if you didn't watch last night's game, it cemented the fact that this is the worst defense in the NBA and certainly the worst in Piston's history.

Some of it is youth, some of it is Casey's schemes, but a lot of it is also that these are simply poor defensive players - a team full of them. That has to be addressed before they can take a step forward and it will mean moving some players, especially these wings.

[1984Echoes]

Yeah, the defense is a problem...

But specifically on Ivey and Cade... I don't want to make a call on their defense until they are at full speed. And that certainly isn't this year.

Agree on better defense needed out of the wings... but for now/ this year, it is what it is...

[Deleterious]

What the fuck

[gehringer_2]

38 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Ivey should be the primary and Cade the secondary

and isn't this going to be sort of a dilemma for the Pistons? The excuse made for Cade was always that despite not having a top level shot or top level athleticism, he would redeem himself as a top player by the value of having the ball in his hands, but if you've already brought in another player whose hands you maybe would rather see the ball in, where does does that leave Cade?

Can you have two guys share primary ball handling in this NBA? In the end don't you have to be better with one or the other? Of course moot point if Cunningham can't stay healthy.

Edited January 7, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Betrayer]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Can you have two guys share primary ball handling in this NBA? In the end don't you have to be better with one or the other?

Tatum Usage - 32.8%
Brown Usage - 31.5%

I just looked at those quickly, but I'm sure there are others. I don't think we want a Luka situation, and even we did, Cade ain't Luka.

[casimir]

5 hours ago, Betrayer said:

I honestly think the best outcome is if they can grow to be a back and forth thing like Tatum and Brown, where either can initiate the offense (in very different ways), either can play off-ball, and you can stagger them so one of them is on the court at all times.

This is the way I remember Thomas and Dumars.  Generally it was Thomas’ show, but Dumars was adept at handling the point with Thomas off of it at times.  And then with Johnson playing off of the ball when he was on the floor, it was Thomas/Dumars running things while Dumars/Thomas was on the bench.

Its definitely a different game now, and the collection of Cunningham, Ivey, and Hayes is a different skill set individually and collectively than the Palace guards were.  Hayes has progressed despite earlier frustrations with his draft selection and development.  Cunningham and Hayes have shown potential.  Can they find cohesiveness as a trio or maybe a quartet with a defensive minded veteran added into the mix?

[Hart]

6 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I've said this before:

Ivey should be the primary and Cade the secondary.

For a very specific reason: Ivey can break down the defense. And once he does that, he is either scoring on the inside or passing it out to get the ball in Cade's hands. Ivey doesn't have to do this each and every play. Let's call it 50/50 just for example/ illustrative purposes (reality would probably be different...): 50% of the plays the ball starts with Ivey but swings around to Cade in which he is initiating a scoring play (for himself or getting the ball into someone else's hands...); and 50% Ivey breaks down the defense for a scoring attempt or, if closed off, passes out to get the ball into Cade's hands again to initiate a scoring attempt. This is a gross simplification... but:

On those plays that Ivey breaks down the defense and had to pass out of a double-team or collapsing defense: Cade is now getting the ball into his hands with that broken down defense. He has a MAJOR advantage at this point with his scoring ability/ passing ability/ and court vision.

Again, I've grossly simplified this: But I think starting with Ivey as primary and breaking down defenses and Cade as secondary (in multiple different ways) gives the O several huge advantages, including Cade & his skills specifically.

 

 

 

I need to see more of both of them but this is my general feeling also.  It takes a lot more effort from Cade to beat guys off the dribble compared Ivey.  Cade can still be great and I don't want to take away his playmaking ability because he is a better passer than Ivey but using Ivey as the primary ball handler just makes more sense.  

[gehringer_2]

29 minutes ago, casimir said:

 Cunningham and Hayes have shown potential.  Can they find cohesiveness as a trio or maybe a quartet with a defensive minded veteran added into the mix?

If you don't earn you keep with assists you need to able to shoot - today that means treys. That's the Piston's problem in a nutshell, whoever goes off the ball has to be more threat as a shooter (e.g Dumars in your example) and none of Ivey, Killian or really even Cade, has shown they consistently can be. Maybe they get there, but it's an open question. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Hart]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

and isn't this going to be sort of a dilemma for the Pistons? The excuse made for Cade was always that despite not having a top level shot or top level athleticism, he would redeem himself as a top player by the value of having the ball in his hands, but if you've already brought in another player whose hands you maybe would rather see the ball in, where does does that leave Cade?

Can you have two guys share primary ball handling in this NBA? In the end don't you have to be better with one or the other? Of course moot point if Cunningham can't stay healthy.

It's probably going to end up being some kind of timeshare.  But I have no problem admitting Cade's probably not going to be what his NBA Draft profile suggested.  Doesn't mean he can't still be an All-Star.  If he doesn't end up being a franchise player, I don't think the Pistons should view that as an issue.  

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Hart said:

It's probably going to end up being some kind of timeshare.  But I have no problem admitting Cade's probably not going to be what his NBA Draft profile suggested.  Doesn't mean he can't still be an All-Star.  If he doesn't end up being a franchise player, I don't think the Pistons should view that as an issue.  

He still hasn't played that much NBA basketball, there is still plenty of opportunity for him the become the franchise player we hope for. But with Cade MIA and given Mobley's impact, esp given the conversation up-thread about defense, it's easy to be a bit frustrated.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

If you don't earn you keep with assists you need to able to shoot - today that means treys. That's the Piston's problem in a nutshell, whoever goes off the ball has to be more threat as a shooter (e.g Dumars in your example) and none of Ivey, Killian or really even Cade, has shown they consistently can be. Maybe they get there, but it's an open question. 

These guys are still very, very, very young. Even Killian.

I'm going to guess that their shooting will improve. Each of them. Yes, even Killian.

On offense: I think it's just giving these guys time to develop. Plus whoever we get high in the draft this year.

On defense: again, I think these guys are young, and will improve (plus our 2023 1st rounder...). But also, sometimes you can just add a key defender - a 3 & D guy or a top defensive Center - and the dynamic changes on that end.

That... and for both O & D... sometimes it takes a change in coaching and then magically everything gets better.

Bottom line is: it's too early for me to worry about any of this while all the key players are just kids.

[buddha]

its hard to judge cade since he is always fucking hurt.

[casimir]

14 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

If you don't earn you keep with assists you need to able to shoot - today that means treys. That's the Piston's problem in a nutshell, whoever goes off the ball has to be more threat as a shooter (e.g Dumars in your example) and none of Ivey, Killian or really even Cade, has shown they consistently can be. Maybe they get there, but it's an open question. 

Off ball movement would be nice as well.  Heck, a combo of the two.  If they could acquire/develop a Reggie Miller / Richard Hamilton moving & shooting threat.

[casimir]

11 hours ago, buddha said:

its hard to judge cade since he is always fucking hurt.

Well, there is that, too.  The injury helps the draft lottery situation, but at some point the youth and potential needs to blossom into wins.