sabretooth

Yeah, the rotation is practically non-existent at this point.

I'll leave it to others to decide if the characterization of my responses are accurate.

You make a point without getting personal and nasty about it.

"Average" does not = "Top 5" I have been saying "at least average payroll" for the last 7 years. Said it about 10 times just in the last 48 hours in this thread.

You really need to tone it down.

Sure, I'm hopeful about what Harris can do relatively speaking, my point is simply that there's a pretty clear limit to what a good GM can do on his own without at least average $$. There's also a limit to what $$ can do, that's not an answer in and of itself, though spending a lot of money consistently like the Yankees does at least ensures a pretty consistently good team -- though of course the Yankees and Dodgers and Red Sox are the few teams that can do this due to their market bases, and success in W/L is never exactly proportional to $$. The answer to all of these questions (scouting v stats, $$ vs development, development v trading, etc.) is that the answer for sustaining success is at least a good amount of each thing. For what it's worth, I've been saying that the answer is in a balanced approach since at least 2015; my consistent suppport for any owner willing to spend his or her $$ and my opposition to the tanking crowd makes me a target for some who want to paint me as a spend-first/spend-big advocate. I always supported Mike I's spending in the heyday, and it should be noted that a billionaire can spend whatever he wants if he's willing to use resources from Pizza Business X to support winning for Team Y, but I also have consistently acknowledged that a balanced approach is more sustainable.

I never expected nor need to see Mike I level payroll. For what it's worth, the apparent collapse of the regional cable TV model nationwide probably means that guys like Chris have to focus more on building a winning product to make profit, and cannot take the low-risk road to modest profits that the cable TV model provided to every team (even the bad ones like the Tigers) before COVID. At least I hope that's the case going forward. Winning = $$ = happy owner + happy fans. That's how it should be. No tanking to get cheap top-5 picks to save the owner $$, and no leaning on shared revenue or other sources to make a safe little profit. In a word, just win, baby. And nobody except the Rays and A's wins without at least an average payroll. I want to **see** that Harris has the resources to compete. No disrespect to anybody here, but your hopes are not facts until Chris proves it. Chris absolutely increased payroll in 2022 but team payroll was still below average in 2022; and while Miggy's $30M (or whatever exact $$ figure it was in 2022) had PR pizzaz and some ticket/jersey sales, nevertheless it was known before the season that he would contribute nothing or next to nothing to winning games in 2022, so the effective payroll from an on-field performance standpoint went from bottom 5 in 2021 (again, discounting Miggy's $$ as basically non-contributory) to still wayyyy below average.

I was typing that on my phone...."low payroll" was short-hand for "below average payroll". I do agree that he will spend to a degree, he did increase payroll in 2022, and I supported that whole-heartedly and I thought along with the projection systems that they would be an OK team. That having been said, I seriously doubt that he will spend an average amount consistently or more than average amount in any given season. I hope I'm proven wrong. I'm really tired of seeing shitty teams (or at best shitty teams aspiring to mediocrity) year after year after year.

thats cool

There is six years of low payroll as evidence. There are zero years otherwise. Disagree based on your hope but your hopes are not facts.

A fair point.

The Chris era has been completely dreary, and thats no fault of mine. What is fantasy is believing that a guy who has never supported even an average payroll (other than the one he inherited in 2017 and tore down/firesold immediately thereafter) will suddenly do so. The best hope is that the collapse of the Bally Sports bottom line recently will force Chris to put a winning product on the field to make a reliable profit.

Theres no evidence that Chris will spend an average or better payroll consistently (or at all). He did increase his spending in 2022, I supported that openly, but it was still a below average level of spend even with Miggys huge $$. I will believe it when I see it.

You *know* for a fact that Chris is going to spend at least an average amount on team payroll? Great! Glad to hear it. Can't wait to see what Harris does with those kinds of resources. Rock on dude.

Bottom line is I'm feeling about Chris WRT to the Tigers the same way I feel about SFH and the Lions. It's just not gonna work from a winning standpoint until they sell.

Chris could choose to push for a 90 win team but he'd have to spend a lot more $$ than he's ever done before, and I don't see that happening now or ever. In fact, if Harris is successful in building an above average (85-90 win) team somehow without at least an average or above average payroll for a year or two, Chris (and a bunch of other people) would take that as prima facie evidence that you can win on the cheap (which is true for 2 or 3 teams, but not for the rest). The winning probably would not last with a below average payroll, and it would probably fall back to mediocrity or worse, as it did in KC after their brief flirt with success. If on the other hand, Harris is not successful in building a fairly consistent above average team with a below average payroll, Chris will at some point fire him and replace him with another GM and ask him to do the highly improbable/impossible. Either way, I don't see Harris building a fairly consistent above average team with a consistently below average payroll. I suspect what is more doable for Harris is a team that wins 75-80 games most of the time, and every 3rd or 4th year eeks into winning territory and they rent a player or two via ASB trade to try and make the playoffs in those years, and every so often stumbles into the 60s. After a decade of conditioning fans to accept a crappy product (reinforced by near-constant failure from the other professional Detroit franchises), that will probably be Chris's (and the fans') measure of "success", I would guess. We are starting to feel like Kansas City or St. Louis, but without the Chiefs or the Cardinals. Blech.

Yeah they did, though I have to say it's been really nice to see Cade in this mode of leading the offense. He's been very effective the last few games, but he does need to get others a little more involved, especially Bey.

Yeah it looks like a different player....more of a pace-setter, slashing more, taking more shots....good to see.

Noel is healthy? They really need a guy of his size and apparent skill level out there.

Honestly, I can't blame the fans for being divided at this point. The Pistons have been a crap team forever and were off to a bad start this year.

I love this guy but this seemed a little off at first blush for someone who will be 35 years old in the second year of the extension. Given the partial guarantee of only $2M that seems reasonable.

Killian is the only player on this team that I actively dislike. Just zero basketball sense, lots of TOs, poor shooter...gah.

Great production of course from Bey and Beef Stew, terrific effort everywhere from both of them.

Great win tonight...great effort, team game, lots of ball sharing. Bogey really showing them how to play and how to communicate.

I hope not