chasfh Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: No, I don't. With starters going fewer and fewer innings, it just seems like a natural step. At some point, the back end starters are going to be pitching 3-4 innings per start which means the bullpen is going to pitching more innings than the starters and the line between starter/reliever gets blurry. I mean, it makes some sense on paper. I'm just wondering whether there are enough quality pitchers who can fulfill the swing man/110-inning role to make it actually work. If you have two regular starter roles that can bring you on average 190 innings, and, say, five short relief roles that can average 75 innings, that would mean you'd need six swing roles averaging 115 innings to split the remaining starts and do long and the occasional middle relief outing. That would get you the 1,450 innings you need to compete for a whole season. I think the trick here is to find more than six pitchers in your system who can effectively fulfill the swing man role, because you're not going to have the same six guys all year. So you might need maybe ten or twelve, in addition to four or five or so who can do the starter roles, and the ten to twelve or so you'll need for your short guys. I do think a sticking point will be finding guys who will be comfortable in a swing role, in which they start on an infrequent and nonscheduled basis but also might relieve anywhere from three hitters to several innings on others, and pitchers, being creature of habit, might chafe. They'd have to buy in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: No, I don't. With starters going fewer and fewer innings, it just seems like a natural step. At some point, the back end starters are going to be pitching 3-4 innings per start which means the bullpen is going to pitching more innings than the starters and the line between starter/reliever gets blurry. I think the Tigers are already close to where things are going. We'll see starters drop to averaging 150, maybe some a little more, and the role of swingman start getting more innings - maybe two guys working almost as many innings as a starter in 2-3 inning appearances, -120 or more, then 4 guys remain in old style short role ~70 IP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 2 hours ago, chasfh said: I mean, it makes some sense on paper. I'm just wondering whether there are enough quality pitchers who can fulfill the swing man/110-inning role to make it actually work... Interestingly, the Tigers have a crapload of these guys in the system. Basically, "failed starters"... or guys who are good once through a lineup but get figured out their second time through a lineup and tend to get blasted that 2nd time through: In Detroit: Holton (2), Wentz (2-3) and Faedo (2-3) have shown the ability to pitch 2 or 3 innings at a time. Holton is 50/50 whether he goes 1 or 2 (without checking the actual numbers) and pitched a lot of 2 inning appearances last year IIRC. Wentz is doing OK this year (not so well last year) at a 1.24 WHIP and 0.79 ERA, 11 inn's in 7 appearances. Faedo has the 6th highest innings (after the 5 starters) at 21 in 12 appearances with a 1.14 WHIP and 2.57 ERA. Toledo: Guessing Montero, Flores, Hurter, Brieske (already a middle innings guy, last year with Detroit 1.37 WHIP, 3.60 ERA... so not terrible) head towards multi-innings middle relief guys instead of sticking as starters. Right now they're all struggling a bit in Toledo though... The Org is still high on all these guys though as far as I know... Also: who is good out of these guys versus can't cut it in MLB? Answer: "I don't know." 3rd base. Erie: guessing Troy Melton ends up in the BP as a 2-3-inning guy when he gets higher up. Jaden Hamm at WM is an unknown to me. I don't know what his "stuff" is. He looks good as a starter at WM... what kind of carrying power is that though...? The guys in the Org with the highest chances of remaining a starter (just on a WAG) I am guessing would be Manning, Jobe, and Lockhart. Maybe Hamm? Edited May 5 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 It at least says we have current MLB'ers and some depth at AAA and AA that could fill those roles... The quality of that depth is an unknown though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 PS: Actually... Lockhart looks like a reliever too... At least based on history... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 28 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: In Detroit: Holton (2), After Manning, Holton would be 1st guy I would try to transition back to a starter if they end up needed a starter. Manning's stuff seems good enough but he seems to run out of gas. Maybe needs another 10-15 lbs on that frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 16 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Interestingly, the Tigers have a crapload of these guys in the system. Basically, "failed starters"... or guys who are good once through a lineup but get figured out their second time through a lineup and tend to get blasted that 2nd time through: In Detroit: Holton (2), Wentz (2-3) and Faedo (2-3) have shown the ability to pitch 2 or 3 innings at a time. Holton is 50/50 whether he goes 1 or 2 (without checking the actual numbers) and pitched a lot of 2 inning appearances last year IIRC. Wentz is doing OK this year (not so well last year) at a 1.24 WHIP and 0.79 ERA, 11 inn's in 7 appearances. Faedo has the 6th highest innings (after the 5 starters) at 21 in 12 appearances with a 1.14 WHIP and 2.57 ERA. Toledo: Guessing Montero, Flores, Hurter, Brieske (already a middle innings guy, last year with Detroit 1.37 WHIP, 3.60 ERA... so not terrible) head towards multi-innings middle relief guys instead of sticking as starters. Right now they're all struggling a bit in Toledo though... The Org is still high on all these guys though as far as I know... Also: who is good out of these guys versus can't cut it in MLB? Answer: "I don't know." 3rd base. Erie: guessing Troy Melton ends up in the BP as a 2-3-inning guy when he gets higher up. Jaden Hamm at WM is an unknown to me. I don't know what his "stuff" is. He looks good as a starter at WM... what kind of carrying power is that though...? The guys in the Org with the highest chances of remaining a starter (just on a WAG) I am guessing would be Manning, Jobe, and Lockhart. Maybe Hamm? I think that's how most relievers end up being relievers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 16 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Interestingly, the Tigers have a crapload of these guys in the system. Basically, "failed starters"... or guys who are good once through a lineup but get figured out their second time through a lineup and tend to get blasted that 2nd time through: In Detroit: Holton (2), Wentz (2-3) and Faedo (2-3) have shown the ability to pitch 2 or 3 innings at a time. Holton is 50/50 whether he goes 1 or 2 (without checking the actual numbers) and pitched a lot of 2 inning appearances last year IIRC. Wentz is doing OK this year (not so well last year) at a 1.24 WHIP and 0.79 ERA, 11 inn's in 7 appearances. Faedo has the 6th highest innings (after the 5 starters) at 21 in 12 appearances with a 1.14 WHIP and 2.57 ERA. Toledo: Guessing Montero, Flores, Hurter, Brieske (already a middle innings guy, last year with Detroit 1.37 WHIP, 3.60 ERA... so not terrible) head towards multi-innings middle relief guys instead of sticking as starters. Right now they're all struggling a bit in Toledo though... The Org is still high on all these guys though as far as I know... Also: who is good out of these guys versus can't cut it in MLB? Answer: "I don't know." 3rd base. Erie: guessing Troy Melton ends up in the BP as a 2-3-inning guy when he gets higher up. Jaden Hamm at WM is an unknown to me. I don't know what his "stuff" is. He looks good as a starter at WM... what kind of carrying power is that though...? The guys in the Org with the highest chances of remaining a starter (just on a WAG) I am guessing would be Manning, Jobe, and Lockhart. Maybe Hamm? I don’t have any sense that the organization is moving towards a two starters/six swing men system, although if that were magically made a requirement, the Tigers might be better off cobbling one together than most other teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) 8 hours ago, chasfh said: I don’t have any sense that the organization is moving towards a two starters/six swing men system, although if that were magically made a requirement, the Tigers might be better off cobbling one together than most other teams. No... But what I would say is that, even if the Org is still going 5-man rotation (which they are), that: The existing pressure on pitchers to go all out means we'll have a lot more starters going 4-5 innings and not so many going 6-7 anymore. I think that, in and of itself, stresses out a bullpen so much, even with 8 guys in there, that the only way to compensate is to have multiple guys who can pitch multiple innings... which is at least a step towards what you are asking. IE: If a team has 3 guys in a row going 4.1 innings... the stress of trying to cover the 4.2 innings per game left (more or less... depending on circumstances) is too much for even an 8-man staff to bear unless a team has multiple multi-inning relievers. Call them "Middle" or whatever... I made a request in spring training to have several multi-inning guys because I see that as how the league is currently constructed. So if we have three 90-120 innings guys, plus several other 1-inning types... I think that's what it takes to try and get through a 2024 season with the way starters are currently being used. IMO. So... we're about halfway to your position, or question... Edited May 6 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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