Will Tigers Pony up for Skubal

[AlaskanTigersFan]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

They should be trying to win every season now.  Retool and try to win next year.  

I agree. But if people are going to throw lets say a 25-50 ranked Prospect in low A ball right now for Mize, I'd rather have that then a 90-100 prospect that is in AAA. Know what I mean?

[Tiger337]

5 hours ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I agree. But if people are going to throw lets say a 25-50 ranked Prospect in low A ball right now for Mize, I'd rather have that then a 90-100 prospect that is in AAA. Know what I mean?

Not necessarily.  The A ball prospect could lose his prospect status in the next couple of years.  There are always exceptions, but I'd generally rather have the guy who is closer to the majors.  I am just going to trust Harris to know which one has a better chance to succeed.  

[chasfh]

7 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

They should be trying to win every season now.  Retool and try to win next year.  

Exactly. These players have shown they are capability of winning, and even of crushing other teams, for decent stretches of games at a time, especially what they are fully healthy. Maybe there’s something else going on they have to fix, like development personnel, or training personnel, or something else that’s more impactful than we imagine.

[NorthWoods]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Exactly. These players have shown they are capability of winning, and even of crushing other teams, for decent stretches of games at a time, especially what they are fully healthy. Maybe there’s something else going on they have to fix, like development personnel, or training personnel, or something else that’s more impactful than we imagine.

I've said it before - Like the Red Wings I think this team needs a clubhouse reset.   Maybe McGonigle becomes the leader eventually but he's too young now.  Dingler seems the quieter type but a good 2nd in command.   I think they need a vocal leader that can back his words up with gritty, positive outcome play.  I have no idea who that is since I don't know personalities well in MLB.   Also it wouldn't hurt if he played a quality RF and struck 45HR per year. 

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, NorthWoods said:

I've said it before - Like the Red Wings I think this team needs a clubhouse reset.   Maybe McGonigle becomes the leader eventually but he's too young now.  Dingler seems the quieter type but a good 2nd in command.   I think they need a vocal leader that can back his words up with gritty, positive outcome play.  I have no idea who that is since I don't know personalities well in MLB.   Also it wouldn't hurt if he played a quality RF and struck 45HR per year. 

Maybe Jahmai Jones is that guy. Maybe he's the clubhouse leader! 😂

Although if that's true, it sure isn't translating to wins, is it? 😏

[NorthWoods]

Just now, chasfh said:

Maybe Jahmai Jones is that guy. Maybe he's the clubhouse leader! 😂

Although if that's true, it sure isn't translating to wins, is it? 😏

And he's now nowhere close to my required 45 knocks.

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, NorthWoods said:

I've said it before - Like the Red Wings I think this team needs a clubhouse reset.   Maybe McGonigle becomes the leader eventually but he's too young now.  Dingler seems the quieter type but a good 2nd in command.   I think they need a vocal leader that can back his words up with gritty, positive outcome play.  I have no idea who that is since I don't know personalities well in MLB.   Also it wouldn't hurt if he played a quality RF and struck 45HR per year. 

I'll settle for a guy who quietly plays quality RF and hits 45 home runs.

[gehringer_2]

just watching video into the dugout it doesn't jump out there there is any player who looks like they are or are trying to be  the 1st among equals, though you might never see that anyway. I think a few years ago James McCann tried to be that guy, but I don't know if he actually was taken seriously by his mates.

[Tiger337]

16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

just watching video into the dugout it doesn't jump out there there is any player who looks like they are or are trying to be  the 1st among equals, though you might never see that anyway. I think a few years ago James McCann tried to be that guy, but I don't know if he actually was taken seriously by his mates.

When someone tries to lead, it doesn't work.  I understand the concept of having a strong personality on the team to whom others gravitate, but I think it has to happen naturally.  

Edited July 3 by Tiger337

[monkeytargets39]

I would think to some extent Javy is the leader and his absence does have an affect on the team somewhat.

 

I don’t think team leadership is the problem—but I do feel like Hinch has gotten to the point with the team where it’s getting harder to believe in him.  He seems to treat a lot of the players like Lego pieces instead of human beings—at least when it comes to how he manages games.  It’s fun when it works but when it doesn’t it’s gotta be miserable.

 

The best part of a good leader is when they stand up and say what needs to be said.  Hinch always seems to skirt around tough questions and his leashes for certain players seem way more lax than for others.  Maybe it’s different behind closed doors, but i never enjoyed working for managers who wouldn’t do what’s right for the teams success even if it was a difficult thing to do.

Edited July 3 by monkeytargets39

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

When someone ties to lead, it doesn't work.  I understand the concept of having a strong personality on the team to whom others gravitate, but I think it has to happen naturally.  

McGonigle looks like he has a little Kirk Gibson in him, he could grow into it. I think the guy that should be  most likely would be Torkelson, but his own career remains too much a struggle for him to get there.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said:

I would think to some extent Javy is the leader and his absence does have an affect on the team somewhat

I can believe this.

[monkeytargets39]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I can believe this.

Javy is kind of like Miggy to me in the sense that you can tell he just really loves playing the game regardless of outcome—and just having someone like that around seems like it would ease pressure and tension a bit.  Especially when that player is the biggest name brand on the team.  It’s different from that player being a Jahmai Jones or a Jake Rogers type who aren’t good in the first place so having fun is all they really could do anyway.

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

McGonigle looks like he has a little Kirk Gibson in him, he could grow into it. I think the guy that should be  most likely would be Torkelson, but his own career remains too much a struggle for him to get there.

I can see McGonigle.  I struggle with this concept because I find most vocal leadership types to be annoying and draining rather than inspiring.  However, I do know that others like to have leadership and there are some people who are able to do it without being annoying.  

[monkeytargets39]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I can see McGonigle.  I struggle with this concept because I find most vocal leadership types to be annoying and draining rather than inspiring.  However, I do know that others like to have leadership and there are some people who are able to do it without being annoying.  

I’d almost argue that having a bonafide leader is less important to a clubhouse than eliminating cancerous players.  Honestly, Valdez seems like he teeters on the brink of being that type of guy.  

[NorthWoods]

10 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I can see McGonigle.  I struggle with this concept because I find most vocal leadership types to be annoying and draining rather than inspiring.  However, I do know that others like to have leadership and there are some people who are able to do it without being annoying.  

There's a fine line between inspiring vocal leader and annoying.   That line is broadened a bit by 45HR.

[gehringer_2]

23 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I can see McGonigle.  I struggle with this concept because I find most vocal leadership types to be annoying and draining rather than inspiring.  However, I do know that others like to have leadership and there are some people who are able to do it without being annoying.  

I agree it's not the rah-rah part - it's having a guy or guys on the team with enough standing that you don't want to disappoint   or whose disapproval you know will be echoed by the rest of the clubhouse if you screw up. Sort of the pop shorthand is 'guy(s) who enforce accountability" though I'm not sure that coinage quite captures it either. Maybe it's just a matter of having a few guys on the team for whom winning is really serious business, guys who can't enjoy life and you don't want to be around if they lose and so create motivation in the rest of the team to keep them happy! 😂

Edited July 3 by gehringer_2

[alex]

10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I agree it's not the rah-rah part - it's having a guy or guys on the team with enough standing that you don't want to disappoint   or whose disapproval you know will be echoed by the rest of the clubhouse if you screw up. Sort of the pop shorthand is 'guy(s) who enforce accountability" though I'm not sure that coinage quite captures it either. Maybe it's just a matter of having a few guys on the team for whom winning is really serious business, guys who can't enjoy life and you don't want to be around if they lose and so create motivation in the rest of the team to keep them happy! 😂

All IMHO, but that was always why I felt Bregman was the right player for this team at the time. Before everyone points out his current stats, I get it he is not having a 'statistical' great year, but he has that certain air about him and is a leader.

This would have been what his second year in Detroit (if we did the 6 years). He did help Boston last year and in beantown most all do know that. I also get he (and Boras) may have upset Harris. In hindsight they more than likely would have: 1) not offered Torres the QO (BTW, Torres is also good for this team) and 2) no Framber. McG would still be who he is, maybe at 2B and SS (instead of 3B and SS).

That is all history now.

Leadership comes in many forms. Stats are part of it but 'example, shear will and determination' are big as well. Look at Jose Ramirez and the cast he is surrounded by. He has an influence on that team regardless if he is 'always' coming through for them.

Another thing with baseball today that has really changed - SP, although important, is simply not as important as it used to be. Simply, pitchers are just going 5 & 6 innings these days and there are more IL stints than ever. With said, relief pitching is such a crap shot from one year to the next and even one month to the next. Teams are winning with such randomness from one month to the next and RP is often a big part of it. Throw in health and a lot of this has become simple luck and winning a war of attrition! 

It could be said the Tigers have the most talent of any A.L. Central team (certainly the highest payroll). However, they have more blown saves than any team and the month of May was terrible (note the RP that month).

The Tigers could still sneak up in the standings as we inch closer to the trade deadline. If they play below .500 from now until Aug. 1st, they more than likely will 'have' to sell. They will simply take themselves out of any potential late run. If they play say 5 games above until then, they will be back in the Central race (let alone WC). Let's face it, this division is simply not that strong - and for that matter neither is the entire A.L.

Oddly, IF the latter is the case (ex the Tigers play a few above .500 now through Aug. 1), they could still trade Skubal if the right package was there (ex LAD, Milw). They could still compete this year and put themselves in better position for the future.

IMO, I just do not think they will sign Tarik long term and long term pitcher friendly contracts are not good business for small to mid market clubs (ex injuries are just too often).

 

[Sports_Freak]

Skubal for Mason Miller would make the Tigers both a buyer and seller.

[monkeytargets39]

I’m ready to see them stop spending big bucks on pitchers across the board.  It hasn’t worked for the Tigers in a long time and with starters not pitching as deep into games as they used to in previous generations, it’s not worth it.  
 

Valdez is going to be getting over a million dollars per start next year.  That’s not worth it to me unless like 85-90% of those starts are QS and he’s leaves the game with the lead.

 

Melton/Montero/Jobe/Olson/Madden have just as much likelihood at this point of being effective for 1/10 the cost.

Invest in offense and extreme K rate bullpen guys who don’t walk people.

[Sports_Freak]

8 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said:

I’m ready to see them stop spending big bucks on pitchers across the board.  It hasn’t worked for the Tigers in a long time and with starters not pitching as deep into games as they used to in previous generations, it’s not worth it.  
 

Valdez is going to be getting over a million dollars per start next year.  That’s not worth it to me unless like 85-90% of those starts are QS and he’s leaves the game with the lead.

 

Melton/Montero/Jobe/Olson/Madden have just as much likelihood at this point of being effective for 1/10 the cost.

Invest in offense and extreme K rate bullpen guys who don’t walk people.

Agreed. I've seen enough of Valdez. Overpaid and ineffective. A terrible combination. And our bullpen is the reason we"ll be watching the playoffs on TV. 

[AlaskanTigersFan]

Tigers traded another reliever for cash. That's two in the last week. If the Tigers are going to trade away some relievers this trade deadline, they are emptying their replacements..... Not really sure what Harris is thinking, but not gonna lie, I'm getting a lil nervous..... 

[4hzglory]

1 minute ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Tigers traded another reliever for cash. That's two in the last week. If the Tigers are going to trade away some relievers this trade deadline, they are emptying their replacements..... Not really sure what Harris is thinking, but not gonna lie, I'm getting a lil nervous..... 

Those 2 needed to be added to the 40 man immediately/soon and the team obviously didn't think they were better than those already on it.

[AlaskanTigersFan]

I could name 5 names right now that both of them are better than that are on the 40 man roster..... Delaying selling is costing them........ Each day value goes down...... 

[4hzglory]

1 minute ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I could name 5 names right now that both of them are better than that are on the 40 man roster..... Delaying selling is costing them........ Each day value goes down...... 

Well, since neither had pitched in the majors, and don't have the track record of guys like Brieske, Hurter, Hannifee, etc, it's quite the assumption to make that they are better than 5 guys on the 40 man.   

And to the 2nd part, actually, value for players like Skubal usually goes up the closer you get to the deadline as teams have more clarity as to whether they are in or out, and have more time to bid against each other.