Will Tigers Pony up for Skubal

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, oblong said:

That sounds a lot more subjective than you typically are. To have that as a standard would require some kind of knowledge of potential moves that he willingly passed on. The only one we can legit infer was when he all but admitted the price for Suarez would have been Melton.  It’s too “intangible-ish” for my liking.  Like reaching for something to criticize him for.  

I am very objective when it comes to player evaluatilon.  Some posters here are very interested in the management side of the game and I like that about them.  I am mostly interested in players though.  I can't say what specific moves they should have made or should be making now.  I just have an overall sense that Harris is very conservative and doesn't like to take risks compared to other GMs.  I'd like to see him do more, but once the season starts, I pretty much accept what the roster is and enjoy the games.  

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

uh oh, you are going to be lectured!

 

Letting Candelario walk was his first mistake. We've been looking for a 3rd baseman ever since. Is Nick Maton available? <ducks>

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Letting Candelario walk was his first mistake. We've been looking for a 3rd baseman ever since. Is Nick Maton available? <ducks>

Even Chas thought that was a mistake.  

[buddha]

The general philosophy of not spending big money on a free agent is a good one.  dont pay ridiculous prices for the down years of production when you can often get similar production from younger, cheaper players.  that's been a mantra from the more analytical type observers for a long, long time (shoutout to baseball think factory and those of us who used to read rany and rob on the royals...).

however, there are exceptions to that rule.  i would argue that the tigers were in such an exception when they were blessed with one of the best pitching talents of his generation and seemingly decided to only tinker on the margins to help them win.

results wise in the major leagues, i think its hard to argue harris has improved the major league team dramatically outside of skubal's starts.  when skubal doesnt pitch, the tigers are decidedly average.  

results wise in the minor leagues, the tigers have succeeded in producing some highly anticipated talents.  if they pan out, harris' approach may yet be vindicated.  my analytical brain likes to think it will be.  my "old man who has watched baseball for 50 years" side still has doubts.  

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

A top executive in a multi-billionaire dollar business fails to make one of the biggest deals of his tenure.  I guess "there was nothing he could do about it" is a fair excuse.

I seem to remember that the main criticism was that Harris did not have a fallback plan and have a separate trade with another team all ready to go should the agreed-upon trade get torpedoed by the player with less than an hour to go. And of course, because what team wouldn't want to be part of some other team's fallback plan?

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Once the players are on the roster how much input does a GM have on what happens on the field? 

I would bet that Harris has some input into on-field strategy, and i would further bet that he is doing it by Hinch's choice, rather than against his will.

[chasfh]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

He may have had input in their desperation run, but the fact is he traded key pieces at the trade deadline.  You can maybe give him credit for giving Hinch the OK to execute pitching chaos, but he put the team in a position where it was almost impossible to win.

Are you saying it's Harris's fault for making the trades, thus putting the team with a 1% chance of making the playoffs on July 31 in a position where it was almost impossible to win? Or are you saying it's Harris's fault that the team had a 1% chance to make the playoffs on July 31 in the first place and Hinch saved his bacon? I just want to make sure I'm raking Harris for the right reason for endeavoring to screw up 2024.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Again, I think Harris is a good GM and I Iike his overall plan.  I just think he is very rigid and I would prefer that he took more risks.  I don't understand why people get so sensitive to any critique of Harris at all.  

And I don't understand why people who defend Harris's executing his well-documented plan are considered sensitive, or otherwise incredibly thin-skinned.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Attracting other talent? Thats a huge leap. This Tigers organization doesn't go after long term expensive players. Players will sign with the teams that offer them the most money, in most cases. The Tigers seem to limit contracts to 2 or 3 years, signing players coming off of injury or after an ineffective season on a "prove it" contract as a stepping stone to future big contracts. When I wonder if signing Skubal to a huge deal would benefit the business end of our team, I meant more of the fan base and any profits for winning the division and making the playoffs? I just wonder how much is the difference on the business end between playing .500 or playing .650 ball and seriously contending?

I don't agree that's our fate, and we've debated this part before, and you should know where I stand on that by now, so we can part friends on this one. Unless you want me to clarify my position again. Just say the word.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Tigermojo said:

I doubt Harris is involving himself in game decisions. He came to Detroit looking to upgrade every aspect of the organization. The clubhouse, staff, fan experience, minor leagues, culture, nutrition, medical, performance, control the zone, come here to improve, etc. Too bad he sucks and has no impact on the team....

I doubt he is, too. My impression is that in-game strategy is planned out by Harris and Hinch in advance, in strokes both broad and specific as needed, and that Hinch is given 100% latitude during actual games to execute it or call audibles as he sees fit.

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Are you saying it's Harris's fault for making the trades, thus putting the team with a 1% chance of making the playoffs on July 31 in a position where it was almost impossible to win? Or are you saying it's Harris's fault that the team had a 1% chance to make the playoffs on July 31 in the first place and Hinch saved his bacon? I just want to make sure I'm raking Harris for the right reason for endeavoring to screw up 2024.

He was right to make the deadline trades and lucky that things turned out different than planned.  I think it's disingenuous to suggest that the way they made the playoffs that year was part of some grand scheme by Harris.  That season was a lot of fun, but it was lucky and won't be repeated.  It's interesting that the 2025 was pretty much the mirror image of 2024 which I think is more the ramdomness of baseball than anything they did wrong.  

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

And I don't understand why people who defend Harris's executing his well-documented plan are considered sensitive, or otherwise incredibly thin-skinned.

That's not what I said.  I think that saying everyone wants wants Harris gone every time he gets questioned makes you appear sensitive.  

Edited 34 minutes ago by Tiger337

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

Letting Candelario walk was his first mistake. We've been looking for a 3rd baseman ever since. Is Nick Maton available? <ducks>

I too thought letting Candelario go was a mistake, although I also wonder how much Baby Doc pushed for that, since he was such a lightning rod in 2022. I feel the same way about Willi, too. They both had a good year or two after they left, but neither were worth squat afterwards. So, neither were going to be long-term solutions at third.

Isaac, on the other hand ... that was a pure garbage trade.

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

That's not what I said.  

I flat-out quoted you saying people who debate critiques of Harris "get so sensitive". The "incredibly thin-skinned" comment was directed at me by someone else.

[Tiger337]

Just now, chasfh said:

I flat-out quoted you saying people who debate critiques of Harris "get so sensitive". The "incredibly thin-skinned" comment was directed at me by someone else.

Yes, I did say that you were acting sensitively.  What you got wrong was why I was saying that.  😄

[SoCalTiger]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I too thought letting Candelario go was a mistake, although I also wonder how much Baby Doc pushed for that, since he was such a lightning rod in 2022. I feel the same way about Willi, too. They both had a good year or two after they left, but neither were worth squat afterwards. So, neither were going to be long-term solutions at third.

Isaac, on the other hand ... that was a pure garbage trade.

Not keeping candy was the right choice then and the right choice now and if anybody has regrets, I think you can get them from Cincinnati for a Song.
 

 

[Sports_Freak]

19 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't agree that's our fate, and we've debated this part before, and you should know where I stand on that by now, so we can part friends on this one. Unless you want me to clarify my position again. Just say the word.

Do you see the Tigers ever signing premium and expensive players to long term contracts of 6 years or more? And I'm not saying it's Harris who wouldn't do it, I've said several times that nobody knows if he's under orders to keep payroll set at a certain amount. Chris doesn't spend like his dad spent. At least, not yet.

[1984Echoes]

Just now, Sports_Freak said:

Do you see the Tigers ever signing premium and expensive players to long term contracts of 6 years or more? And I'm not saying it's Harris who wouldn't do it, I've said several times that nobody knows if he's under orders to keep payroll set at a certain amount. Chris doesn't spend like his dad spent. At least, not yet.

If it's McGonigle, Clark, Briceno, or Jobe (if they reach that level)...

Then...

Yes.

[Edman85]

People realize Candelario bottomed out the last two years, right? The Reds cut him after 1.5 years of very negative WAR production. Granted, the year of control he was non-tendered was pretty productive for the Nats and Cubs. I just want to make sure it is known just how bad he got on his contract with the Reds.

Also, not signing Framber isn't some cheapness, do the minimum deal. You've built a team with some kind of special sauce for makeup and team-before-self attitude that should increase the likelihood (By the way, for all we know, this could have been why Candelario was non-tendered). You don't blow that up by overspending on a pitcher who... checks notes.. intentionally crossed up and injured his catcher this year without some extensive assurances that was anomylous.

Edited 5 minutes ago by Edman85

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

If it's McGonigle, Clark, Briceno, or Jobe (if they reach that level)...

Then...

Yes.

What about Skubal?  

[Sports_Freak]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

If it's McGonigle, Clark, Briceno, or Jobe (if they reach that level)...

Then...

Yes.

I guess seeing what they do for Skubal will tell us more than just fans speculating on a message board. But really, those player long term decisions are way, way in the future. Harris may have moved on by then and the new GM will get all the credit for the Harris players who help us win.  🤣🤣

[Tiger337]

Just now, Edman85 said:

People realize Candelario bottomed out the last two years, right? The Reds cut him after 1.5 years of very negative WAR production. Granted, the year of control he was non-tendered was pretty productive for the Nats and Cubs. I just want to make sure it is known just how bad he got on his contract with the Reds.

We all know.  

[Sports_Freak]

1 minute ago, Edman85 said:

People realize Candelario bottomed out the last two years, right? The Reds cut him after 1.5 years of very negative WAR production. Granted, the year of control he was non-tendered was pretty productive for the Nats and Cubs. I just want to make sure it is known just how bad he got on his contract with the Reds.

Oh yeah, agreed. But letting him walk with no replacement in place? I'll always consider that a mistake. And Nick Maton? Was there any indication that he would be the answer? Like was he a highly regarded minor league prospect? Or just....a cheap option?