buddha Posted June 12 Posted June 12 btw, i hope you all are right about larkin's value! i still think the most logical trade partner is utah. sounds like we could get something done with them which would be great. we wouldnt deal edvinsson for hughes but we might for misa or #2 pick? interesting... Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 20 minutes ago, buddha said: i cant believe people think larkin is equal in value to 24 year old jack eichel. eichel coming off experimental surgery I only remember that the health risk for letting Eichel pursue the artificial disc replacement was thought to be high at the time - so high that Buffalo's docs refused to approve it. Since it all turned out well maybe there is a tendency to retcon away how much his value may have been affected. I remember reading up about it because I was interested in the medical end. Cervical disc replacement is incredibly difficult surgery, totally bleeding edge at the time - but has been ratified by successes like Eichel since. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 7 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: I only remember that the health risk for letting Eichel pursue the artificial disc replacement was thought to be high at the time - so high that Buffalo's docs refused to approve it. Since it all turned out well maybe there is a tendency to retcon away how much his value may have been affected. I remember reading up about it because I was interested in the medical end. Cervical disc replacement is incredibly difficult surgery, totally bleeding edge at the time - but has been ratified by successes like Eichel since. and the trade was before the surgery, so sugical success/failure was still unknown. Quote
Cruzer1 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 19 hours ago, buddha said: i cant believe people think larkin is equal in value to 24 year old jack eichel. eichel coming off experimental surgery and not being able to play for half the season is about equal to prime/healthy dylan larkin. that's why were saying stevie will likely get a first, a prospect, and some young roster filler third liner. and that would be fine value for larkin. look, if san jose is insane enough to give us the #2 pick in a good draft for dylan larkin, you take it. if they offer misa for larkin, you say yes before they finish the sentence. larkin is 30 and at the end of his prime. youre not going to get as much for that as you would for a younger player with superstar potential. the one advantage you have is that he has term at a great nunber. debrincat is 28 and getting toward the end of his prime. he has one year left on his contract. he is a good scoring winger. he is NOT quinn hughes and wont bring back what hughes brought back. and if he signs an extension it will be for big bucks. as a one year rental? he aint fetching the #2 pick in the ****ing draft. This isn't a good draft at the top. Missing top end guys. Quote
Cruzer1 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 I've heard Larkin for Jason Robertson had been discussed. Quote
Hongbit Posted June 13 Posted June 13 32 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said: I've heard Larkin for Jason Robertson had been discussed. Love Robo but they would become very thin at Center. Quote
Mr.TaterSalad Posted June 13 Posted June 13 If we acquired Jason Robertson I would then flip him for draft capital or top tier prospects. Ideally, San Jose would want Robertson to pair with Celebrini. The long and short of it is, the rebuild failed and we need to hit the reset button on it. Quote
Jason_R Posted June 13 Posted June 13 Anyone who is judging how long a rebuild should take based on some arbitrary timeline is fooling themselves. The rebuild started with Yzerman inheriting a roster that produced the third-worst season in the modern era. It has now produced three straight seasons where the team has been at the cusp of making the playoffs in a very competitive conference. It is not yet a success, but it is not a failure. if one believes that these three late collapses are somehow related to a lack of leadership provided by the captain (and I think it is hard to discount this possibility this now) this trade request is an opportunity to take the rebuild to its next stage, especially since it seems the conditions are right for a bidding war to begin. on the other hand, I am alarmed with how Stevie has handled prospects. Cossa in particular has clearly earned the opportunity to play more than two periods of hockey in the NHL. Stevie’s failure to call him up has undermined his development and his value. This may also be the case for other prospects. And it is the other side of the coin to Stevie signing free agent veterans who have underperformed their contracts. At any rate, it will be a busy summer for Stevie. Larkin will move, Cossa is likely to move, and I still think he may still pursue trade conversations related to a forward (EP40?) that didn’t get concluded at the trade deadline. Finally, it is almost certain that we see MBN, Mazur, and Danielson make the NHL roster next season and maybe ASP and others. Does a third of the roster get turned over? Maybe. Quote
1984Echoes Posted June 14 Author Posted June 14 16 hours ago, Jason_R said: Anyone who is judging how long a rebuild should take based on some arbitrary timeline is fooling themselves. The rebuild started with Yzerman inheriting a roster that produced the third-worst season in the modern era. It has now produced three straight seasons where the team has been at the cusp of making the playoffs in a very competitive conference. It is not yet a success, but it is not a failure. if one believes that these three late collapses are somehow related to a lack of leadership provided by the captain (and I think it is hard to discount this possibility this now) this trade request is an opportunity to take the rebuild to its next stage, especially since it seems the conditions are right for a bidding war to begin. on the other hand, I am alarmed with how Stevie has handled prospects. Cossa in particular has clearly earned the opportunity to play more than two periods of hockey in the NHL. Stevie’s failure to call him up has undermined his development and his value. This may also be the case for other prospects. And it is the other side of the coin to Stevie signing free agent veterans who have underperformed their contracts. At any rate, it will be a busy summer for Stevie. Larkin will move, Cossa is likely to move, and I still think he may still pursue trade conversations related to a forward (EP40?) that didn’t get concluded at the trade deadline. Finally, it is almost certain that we see MBN, Mazur, and Danielson make the NHL roster next season and maybe ASP and others. Does a third of the roster get turned over? Maybe. This is EXACTLY where I am at. And I am going to steal this from the prospects thread... Because: 17 hours ago, Shinzaki said: ... Or Debrincat to the Sabres for Power and other assets...assuming Tuch walks I would love for Stevie to START with this. One, it fixes 2nd pair LHD. Now Chiarot is 3rd pair, and bringing up Anton Johansson and ASP (when they are ready, no reason to force it as we still have Faulk and JBD...) slots them correctly. Anton on the 2nd pair and ASP on the 3rd pair and power play. IMO. In the meantime, Faulk and even JBD (in a pinch) can handle 2nd pair until one of those guys is ready to come up to the NHL. It also makes Faulk tradeable once those guys are ready to come up. Hopefully by next trade deadline as he's a FA after next season anyways. It also puts more STRESS on Larkin. A player like Cat traded? Already? Larkin is trying to squeeze Yzerman with his 3-team list? SY will hold onto Larkin until the right deal comes along. Period. He's not trading him for peanuts. Both he and his agent already know this. They will have to expand their list, and they know it. If Larkin would expand his list to include Montreal (probably NOT on his current wish list...) a deal gets done swiftly, IMO. I think Montreal has the want, the need (2nd line Center), the prospects, the cap room, and the draft picks to make a deal for Larkin. But I would guess Larkin really doesn't want to go there. I have a harder time seeing a good deal for SY with the other teams that may have an interest in him. Like Jason, I don't believe the rebuild is a failure... But it's also not a success. We just haven't gotten as far as we would have liked to. But we do have LOTS of guys who are "on the cusp"... although that still doesn't say whether we can fight our way into the playoffs anytime soon. The competition is tough. And we've underperformed. I would say that... trading Cat and Larkin for good deals, and trading Faulk and Gibson at the deadline (or maybe Gibson this offseason?) will build up young and draft (this year) and future draft prospects to fully load the team up for a better rebuild than where we are at moment. Call it a "Rebuild Reset". Or whatever. But I'm ready to strip down a little bit (Cat, Larkin, Gibson, Faulk at the top of the list) to "build back up better"... so to speak. Just my 2 cents. Quote
Cruzer1 Posted June 14 Posted June 14 If he can handle face-offs, then I would move Raymond to center. Quote
Jason_R Posted June 14 Posted June 14 The elephant in the room is whether Larkin's announcement changes ADB's willingness to sign an extension, or even Kane's willingness to come back for another season. I assume both are waiting to see what the return is before making any decisions, but if it happens that ADB has decided not to extend based on Larkin's departure, then yes, trade him, trade Gibson, trade Faulk. Barring that, it is not out of the question that Larkin gets replaced by Robertson/Johnston from DAL or Lundell from FLA who could fill the Larkin role, or most of it. Now you're looking at phasing out some of the empty jerseys with your prospects and letting them fight for a playoff role, and making your decisions then. If they think EP40 would benefit from a change of scenery, and Vancouver would take one or two of our short-term bad contracts (Compher/Rasmussen) for their long-term bad contract, you suddenly have a guy who could plausibly take over the 1C role with another Swede on his wing and who may turn into a dynamic line with a guy like MBN or Bear when he is ready on the other wing. Larkin's replacement slots between Kane and ADB (and this would let Stevie be more flexible in replacing Larkin with a younger prospect). Copp can play with Mazur and Kasper on a checking line, then you let Finnie, Danielson, and another youngster (maybe Lombardi) play on a speed/energy line. Quote
1984Echoes Posted June 14 Author Posted June 14 That's a very narrow path you are following... I am not opposed to it at all... I'm just sayin'... Difficult to pull off such a narrow and exacting roadmap. Quote
1984Echoes Posted June 14 Author Posted June 14 On the other side of the coin: Trading Cat and Gibson immediately... Places a huge amount of urgency in Larkin's camp. Which is exactly what and where I want it. Quote
Hongbit Posted June 14 Posted June 14 We can argue about expectations and proper timelines but the results still have to count. Those results say Yzerman as GM has not worked. I don’t agree but I could understand keeping Stevie in charge if they made the choice to make minor changes this summer and try to stay the course with the current group. If they do indeed trade Larkin and Cat and go on another rebuild, how in the world would it make sense to do it with Stevie in charge. Even if it’s just moving deckchairs with Horcoff or Draper, they can’t let the same guy make the decisions. It wouldn’t make any sense. Quote
Jason_R Posted June 14 Posted June 14 There is about a 0% chance that someone other than Stevie makes the Larkin trade. That is likely to be done before or during the draft. Quote
buddha Posted June 14 Posted June 14 i imagine they're on a 10 year timeline with yzerman. let's see how danielson and kasper pan out. that will tell if the "rebuild" will be successful or not. i have my doubts. remember, the choice was made when they signed larkin long term: no bottoming out for a chance at a star. they bottomed out naturally (thanks kenny!) in 2019. since then yzerman has been trying to bring in "professional 200 foot hockey players". hasnt worked so far thanks to recent free agent signing busts and the failure to get anything out of any second round picks, even though they had many, many chances. the choice not to trade larkin didnt pan out. unless youre a complete homer (and you know who you are) and think every red wings prospect is an nhl all star in the waiting, i dont sse how you can look at yzerman's tenure as a success. the best grade you can realistically give him is "Inc." let's see if he can get value for larkin that sets the wings on the raymond/seider path. he's done well in the past in trades. we'll see if he can do it again. 1 Quote
Cruzer1 Posted June 14 Posted June 14 3 hours ago, Hongbit said: We can argue about expectations and proper timelines but the results still have to count. Those results say Yzerman as GM has not worked. I don’t agree but I could understand keeping Stevie in charge if they made the choice to make minor changes this summer and try to stay the course with the current group. If they do indeed trade Larkin and Cat and go on another rebuild, how in the world would it make sense to do it with Stevie in charge. Even if it’s just moving deckchairs with Horcoff or Draper, they can’t let the same guy make the decisions. It wouldn’t make any sense. What makes no sense is thinking that the Wings can buy a championship. They must get young value back, and Yzerman is the man to lead them. Quote
Jason_R Posted June 15 Posted June 15 (edited) Add Vegas to the list of teams who will be looking for a goalie this offseason. And just as I was about to say the first goal was soft, Hart made an unbelievable sprawling save! 😂 Of course the save was after he misplayed the puck and was badly out of place… Edited June 15 by Jason_R Quote
buddha Posted June 15 Posted June 15 no one who is looking for a starting goalie to lead them on a cup run is going to trade for sebastian cossa. maybe gibson if they have a solid #2, but cossa is unproven and cannot go through waivers. his value is probably the lowest its been since his draft day because of his late season failings/being benched for the playoffs. if yzerman was looking to deal him, he devalued his asset tremendously. i expect him to be detroit's backup next year. if youre going to rebuild (again) then deal gibson and play cossa. 1 Quote
Jason_R Posted June 15 Posted June 15 FTR I never said Cossa. But I did talk earlier about circumstances where it would make sense to trade Gibson. Quote
1984Echoes Posted June 15 Author Posted June 15 (edited) 15 hours ago, buddha said: no one who is looking for a starting goalie to lead them on a cup run is going to trade for sebastian cossa... I read that as either, potential interest in: A) Gibson. But I would think a team mostly looking for a vet #2 would have him in mind. Not as a #1 option. IMO. B) Or, as a reach, Jesper Wallstedt. I don't believe SY will have interest in him, even as a future trade-asset. But in a 3-team: Maybe Larkin goes to the Wild, Jesper goes to a team willing to chance him as their #1, and we get the prospects/ picks that we want... Just thinking out loud... Edited June 15 by 1984Echoes Quote
Shinzaki Posted June 15 Posted June 15 The Hockey writers propose the following Larkin deal with the Ducks Anaheim gets Larkin Detroit gets C Mason McTavish, LHD Stian Solberg and C Roger McQueen along with Anaheim's 2027 1st and the 2027 2nd they got from us in the Gibson deal They also propose sending Cossa to Utah for Barrett Hayton Quote
Mr.TaterSalad Posted June 15 Posted June 15 3 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: The Hockey writers propose the following Larkin deal with the Ducks Anaheim gets Larkin Detroit gets C Mason McTavish, LHD Stian Solberg and C Roger McQueen along with Anaheim's 2027 1st and the 2027 2nd they got from us in the Gibson deal They also propose sending Cossa to Utah for Barrett Hayton Assuming we're not doing a rebuild I don't mind this trade because we get younger at the center position and I think there is still upside for McTavish to improve. Plus, I like the size, speed, and physical combo that McQueen is rumored to offer. There are worse trade packages for Larkin that I've seen out there. Quote
buddha Posted June 15 Posted June 15 1 hour ago, Shinzaki said: The Hockey writers propose the following Larkin deal with the Ducks Anaheim gets Larkin Detroit gets C Mason McTavish, LHD Stian Solberg and C Roger McQueen along with Anaheim's 2027 1st and the 2027 2nd they got from us in the Gibson deal Localevent tickets They also propose sending Cossa to Utah for Barrett Hayton anaheim would laugh and hang up. Quote
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