04/21/2026 6:40p EDT Milwaukee Brewers at Detroit Tigers

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, Screwball said:

 

 

 

 

Quoted a bunch here.

I get a kick out of this stuff. I know Lee and Chuck are the leading stat guys here, many others are all over it too. It seems to be used much more today. That's good. I love stats, numbers, and get a kick out of this. I'm also old school. Jimmy Leyland is my hero. 

I don't have a problem with a speedy centerfielder with a bunch of stolen bases. 🙂 And you don't need the second batter to be a good bunter - they should all be able to bunt. No money in bunting. Giggle.

So different today.

I loved Leyland.  He was a character and also knew what he was doing.  Plus, the players loved him.  The Tigers were behind the curve in analytics during that era, but Leyland was a good manager.  

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

And how often was that #2 hitter a shortstop?

or second baseman.  The left fielder batted third.  He had the highest batting average and a lot of doubles.  The clean-up hitter was the big slow slugging first baseman.  

[diaspora04]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I loved Leyland.  He was a character and also knew what he was doing.  Plus, the players loved him.  The Tigers were behind the curve in analytics during that era, but Leyland was a good manager.  

 

[Screwball]

I think Lee said above putting the third hitter as the best batter is a fishermans tale, or something like that. I would guess, honest question, according to the stats, the best should be first?

[Screwball]

17 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I love a speedy center fielder who can steal a bunch of bases as much as the next guy. I like one who can get on base a lot and win you a few games with his glove even better. 

News at 11.

[Sports_Freak]

10 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I loved Leyland.  He was a character and also knew what he was doing.  Plus, the players loved him.  The Tigers were behind the curve in analytics during that era, but Leyland was a good manager.  

When reporters questioned his lineups, he would get riled up. He used to play hunches and they seemed to work pretty often. Against all odds at times, totally anti-stat decisions.

[Screwball]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

or second baseman.  The left fielder batted third.  He had the highest batting average and a lot of doubles.  The clean-up hitter was the big slow slugging first baseman.  

Do the stat guys have a position on how lineups should be constructed? I know us old school guys like Jimmy did. I would love to play for that guy.

If I remember right, the Tigers got beat and were out of the playoffs that year so I was really bummed out. The next day Jimmy retired. That was even worse. Spit, and double spit.

[Screwball]

3 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

When reporters questioned his lineups, he would get riled up. He used to play hunches and they seemed to work pretty often. Against all odds at times, totally anti-stat decisions.

Maybe. I had good enough seats at Comerica to sit with the guys who had radar guns. They know who's throwing what and how good all the time. Matchups. Who knows better than the guys on the field at that time.

Some is pretty simple though. If I'm a left handed batter and Skub is pitching I'm telling Skip I'll guard the bat rack that day.

[Tiger337]

9 minutes ago, Screwball said:

Do the stat guys have a position on how lineups should be constructed? I know us old school guys like Jimmy did. I would love to play for that guy.

If I remember right, the Tigers got beat and were out of the playoffs that year so I was really bummed out. The next day Jimmy retired. That was even worse. Spit, and double spit.

The best hitter bats second because it maximizes his run production and gets him more at bats than if he batted 3rd or 4th.  The lead off hitter should get on base a lot.  Best home run hitter who isn't their best hitter bats fourth.  That part hasn't changed much. A lot of today's lineup is matchups though, so it depends on who is pitching like you said.  

[gehringer_2]

i couldn’t watch this one, but looks like Kieder recovered after a bad innings and kept them in it. But 7 h 2 bb, for DeJesus to get 4 outs? What does a guy have to do get pulled around here? 

Edited 14 hours ago by gehringer_2

[oblong]

7 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

or second baseman.  The left fielder batted third.  He had the highest batting average and a lot of doubles.  The clean-up hitter was the big slow slugging first baseman.  

The #5 hitter is the same as the #4 hitter but the better one bats 4th.  And the #9 hitter is the 'secondary' leadoff hitter.  The same kind of player as the leadoff guy but maybe a 2nd year player or some other trait that knocks him down a notch.  He's gotta "set the table" once the game gets into the middle innings.  The 8 hitter is the worst guy... your Gerald Laird or Adam Everett's of the world.

 

[oblong]

7 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

i couldn’t watch this one, but looks like Kieder recovered after a bad innings and kept them in it. But 7 h 2 bb, for DeJesus to get 4 outs? What does a guy have to do get pulled around here? 

If DeJesus didn't throw the 3rd out away after having him picked off... it's a different game.  At that point AJ just said "Screw it...."

We left in that inning.  My younger son was with me and he typically goes to bed at 8 so he was already ready.

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

How's this for a stat? In 1987, Alan Trammell struck out 47 times in almost 600 at bats. 

That’s pretty remarkable in today’s terms, and very good even for his time.

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

The best hitter bats second because it maximizes his run production and gets him more at bats than if he batted 3rd or 4th.  The lead off hitter should get on base a lot.  Best home run hitter who isn't their best hitter bats fourth.  That part hasn't changed much. A lot of today's lineup is matchups though, so it depends on who is pitching like you said.  

Although some sabermetricians advocate very best hitter at the top, then second best second, third best third, etc., aka the cricket batting order, aka the Ohtani method. It does help that Ohtani is also fast and a good base runner, in addition to being far and away the best hitter, which makes putting him top of the order defensible even to old school guys.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

The #5 hitter is the same as the #4 hitter but the better one bats 4th.  And the #9 hitter is the 'secondary' leadoff hitter.  The same kind of player as the leadoff guy but maybe a 2nd year player or some other trait that knocks him down a notch.  He's gotta "set the table" once the game gets into the middle innings.  The 8 hitter is the worst guy... your Gerald Laird or Adam Everett's of the world.

 

The “second leadoff hitter” at #9 does make sense for some situations, maybe against good starters or anticipated pitching duels, although a team probably wouldn’t want to put a remarkably better hitter #9 behind the worst hitter at #8 every game, since that would result in about 18-20 more ABs for the worst hitter (or more likely collection of worst hitters) over the course of a whole season.

[oblong]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The “second leadoff hitter” at #9 does make sense for some situations, maybe against good starters or anticipated pitching duels, although a team probably wouldn’t want to put a remarkably better hitter #9 behind the worst hitter at #8 every game, since that would result in about 18-20 more ABs for the worst hitter (or more likely collection of worst hitters) over the course of a whole season.

I was being sarcastic by the way

Some coaches and managers like doing this.  Leyland would sub a guy into the order slot of the guy they're replacing.   Trammell did his Sunday lineup.  

[Tiger337]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Although some sabermetricians advocate very best hitter at the top, then second best second, third best third, etc., aka the cricket batting order, aka the Ohtani method. It does help that Ohtani is also fast and a good base runner, in addition to being far and away the best hitter, which makes putting him top of the order defensible even to old school guys.

yeah, the best line-up for a given team depends upon the make-up of that team,  The Tango line-up won't necessarily work for every team.  It is what works for the average team.  What I am pushing back against is the idea that the best hitter should bat third.  That might work a given team, but it is not the best idea on average.  

[chasfh]

38 minutes ago, oblong said:

I was being sarcastic by the way

Some coaches and managers like doing this.  Leyland would sub a guy into the order slot of the guy they're replacing.   Trammell did his Sunday lineup.  

I did suss out the sarcasm in your reply, but I was also feeding back in a serious way on the idea of the "second leadoff hitter" batting ninth. There are circumstances for which that might work, or at least be defensible.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Although some sabermetricians advocate very best hitter at the top, then second best second, third best third, etc., aka the cricket batting order, aka the Ohtani method. It does help that Ohtani is also fast and a good base runner, in addition to being far and away the best hitter, which makes putting him top of the order defensible even to old school guys.

I would also say that this kind of line-up is not a bad idea and more defensible than some of the old line-ups where a low obp speedster might leadoff just because he stole a lot of bases.  

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Although some sabermetricians advocate very best hitter at the top, then second best second, third best third, etc., aka the cricket batting order, aka the Ohtani method. It does help that Ohtani is also fast and a good base runner, in addition to being far and away the best hitter, which makes putting him top of the order defensible even to old school guys.

Yeah, Organize is a unicorn. Not many like him in today's game or even...ever.

I take issue with calling a 2 hole hitter the "best" hitter. What criteria is being used? Batting average? On base percentage? Is Hinch bucking the trend or is there some stat that says Torres is our "best" hitter? Torres is taking a lot of walks so far this season, wouldn't that make him an ideal leadoff hitter?

[Tiger337]

38 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Yeah, Organize is a unicorn. Not many like him in today's game or even...ever.

I take issue with calling a 2 hole hitter the "best" hitter. What criteria is being used? Batting average? On base percentage? Is Hinch bucking the trend or is there some stat that says Torres is our "best" hitter? Torres is taking a lot of walks so far this season, wouldn't that make him an ideal leadoff hitter?

Tom Tango, et al wrote a book (called "The Book") and there is a chapter on line-ups.  It's not based on simply looking at batting average or OBP.  It's based on a complex algorithm which estimates the number of runs that a player will contribute to in each batting order position.  

He didn't say the best hitter bats second on every team.  He was saying that all things being equal, it is better for the average team to bat their best hitter second than to have him hitting third.  There is nothing special about the number three spot which makes it advatageous to always put you best hitter there.  It doesn't alway work for the best hitter to bat second either.  It's just that if you are going to pick a spot for your best hitter without considering anything else, the second spot would have the edge.  

Torres does not always bat second.  Sometimes he bats first or third.  Hinch has a different line-up every night based on matchups.  

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Tiger337

[Tenacious D]

Feels like the Brew Crew have a lineup full of McGonigle’s.  Contact hitters that create havoc on the basepaths.  Clark is coming, but we need to develop a few more of those to have sustainable success.

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Tom Tango, et al wrote a book (called "The Book") and there is a chapter on line-ups.  It's not based on simply looking at batting average or OBP.  It's based on a complex algorithm which estimates the number of runs that a player will contribute to in each batting order position.  

He didn't say the best hitter bats second on every team.  He was saying that all things being equal, it is better for the average team to bat their best hitter second than to have him hitting third.  There is nothing special about the number three spot which makes it advatageous to always put you best hitter there.  It doesn't alway work for the best hitter to bat second either.  It's just that if you are going to pick a spot for your best hitter without considering anything else, the second spot would have the edge.  

Torres does not always bat second.  Sometimes he bats first or third.  Hinch has a different line-up every night based on matchups.  

 

I guess I don't understand somebody else's opinion of "best hitter." Last season, when Javy was on an offensive tear (red hot) a reporter asked Hinch if he was thinking of moving him up in the order. Hinch just smiled and turned the question around on the reporter by asking him "would you move him up?" With the implication that it would change Javy's approach batting in a different spot. So yeah, at different times, different hitters could be considered a teams "best hitter." If Torres is struggling, I guess the point is to move him down in the order? Or if he struggles against a certain pitcher and you have a hitter who crushes the same pitcher, move them around? I guess I just dont understand the formula used to have a player considered your "best" hitter.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, Sports_Freak said:

I guess I don't understand somebody else's opinion of "best hitter." Last season, when Javy was on an offensive tear (red hot) a reporter asked Hinch if he was thinking of moving him up in the order. Hinch just smiled and turned the question around on the reporter by asking him "would you move him up?" With the implication that it would change Javy's approach batting in a different spot. So yeah, at different times, different hitters could be considered a teams "best hitter." If Torres is struggling, I guess the point is to move him down in the order? Or if he struggles against a certain pitcher and you have a hitter who crushes the same pitcher, move them around? I guess I just dont understand the formula used to have a player considered your "best" hitter.

Most people don't understand the formula!  But yeah, there are other considerations besides an alglorithm and Hinch is not going to tell you what they are.  

[Sports_Freak]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

Most people don't understand the formula!  But yeah, there are other considerations besides an alglorithm and Hinch is not going to tell you what they are.  

So "best hitter" could change from game to game, depending on the matchup? And managers have a secret formula that no fan knows about that determines his line-up? Uhhh...ohhhh kayyy...alternate universe calling. 🤣🤣