monkeytargets39 Posted June 20 Posted June 20 What is the point of having sports journalists covering the team if none of them are going to ask AJ about pinch hitting Jones for Carpenter all the time? Get some actual insight for people who follow the team. We know Melton pitched well, there’s not much to elaborate on with that. 1 Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 20 Posted June 20 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: So....it's not just MY opinion; it comes down to Hinch managing a system he doesn't have the players for. Platooning is fine, but PH'ing has to based on hitters from the opposite of the pitcher actually being able to hit better than the people they are pinch hitting for. It's primarliy the case with Perez and Jones - Jone hasn't hit LHP and Perez hasn't hit as a LHB. They have been worse than just leaving the 1st player in the game - esp when you add the later ABs lost when another RHP comes in and Carp or Keith are out of the game, etc. Similar with the pitching. He keeps picking Vest to work at leverage, Vest is just not pitching all that well, he has not in general been any improvement over the guy he replaces.When a reliever with a 1.5 WHIP is your choice when you need some shutdown outs that choice is going to blow up a lot. Edited June 20 by gehringer_2 2 Quote
lordstanley Posted June 20 Posted June 20 (edited) Only 3 of 15 AL teams have a positive run differential. The Tigers have the 5th best (or least bad) in the AL. Edited June 20 by lordstanley 2 1 Quote
NorthWoods Posted June 20 Posted June 20 1 hour ago, monkeytargets39 said: What is the point of having sports journalists covering the team if none of them are going to ask AJ about pinch hitting Jones for Carpenter all the time? Get some actual insight for people who follow the team. We know Melton pitched well, there’s not much to elaborate on with that. McCoskey has always been a go along guy, it's who he is. Woodbury seems the same. as does Stavenhagen. The only one that sometimes stirs the soup a bit is Petzold, but he seems to have it in for Harris more than Hinch. Quote
casimir Posted June 20 Author Posted June 20 Jones PHing in the (checks notes) 4th inning was absolutely terrible. His roster spot is absolutely terrible. I remember hearing lore about Leyland not wanting certain Dombrowski choices on the roster and using them enough to get his point across until they were demoted/released. I don’t know if that might be going on here, that’s probably a stretch to assume it to be the case. But if so, I don’t know that his usage today accomplishes anything useful. I guess I’m taking a liberty at saying two wrongs don’t make a right. One aspect to the roster management the last few years is that I think some of these roster decisions are sometimes based on previous season accomplishments that are highly likely outside of career norms and not to be achieved again. I think this, plus Jones’ inability to play defense, should have been obvious reasons to not return him this season. And who here was watching the game? Benetti didn’t really hold back on objective critiquing of the reaction of the crowd and actually siding with them without flat out stating that he agreed with them (if you take the reaction to mean Jones should be cut). That caught me be surprise. He’s not wrong at all. It just wasn’t commentary that I expected. Scales was in the booth with him. I suspect he was caught off guard as well. He offered some commentary about it being a difficult role to PH and not always know when to be ready. I don’t think he was excusing Jones’ season at all, and I certainly understand that role isn’t for everybody. 1 Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 20 Posted June 20 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: it comes down to Hinch managing a system he doesn't have the players for. Platooning is fine, but PH'ing has to based on hitters from the opposite of the pitcher actually being able to hit better than the people they are pinch hitting for. It's primarliy the case with Perez and Jones - Jone hasn't hit LHP and Perez hasn't hit as a LHB. They have been worse than just leaving the 1st player in the game - esp when you add the later ABs lost when another RHP comes in and Carp or Keith are out of the game, etc. Similar with the pitching. He keeps picking Vest to work at leverage, Vest is just not pitching all that well, he has not in general been any improvement over the guy he replaces.When a reliever with a 1.5 WHIP is your choice when you need some shutdown outs that choice is going to blow up a lot. I complained about Hinch PH Jones for Carp so early in the game to my son and he informed me of this stat. He said Hinch was 28th earlier but when he looked at it today, Hinch was dead last. And he also told me Hinch was 2nd best last season but that was what he thought he remembered. To me, it seems like Hinch keeps pushing the right buttons but the players aren't producing the results they were in the past. And he's too damn stubborn to change his mind. He's right and everyone else is wrong. Even if the results dont show it. The entire crowd was booing and jeering Jones when he struck out with the bases loaded today. My DIL couldn't understand why Tiger fans were booing a Tiger player. My son explained it to her. 😏😏 Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 21 Posted June 21 5 minutes ago, casimir said: Jones PHing in the (checks notes) 4th inning was absolutely terrible. His roster spot is absolutely terrible. I remember hearing lore about Leyland not wanting certain Dombrowski choices on the roster and using them enough to get his point across until they were demoted/released. I don’t know if that might be going on here, that’s probably a stretch to assume it to be the case. But if so, I don’t know that his usage today accomplishes anything useful. I guess I’m taking a liberty at saying two wrongs don’t make a right. One aspect to the roster management the last few years is that I think some of these roster decisions are sometimes based on previous season accomplishments that are highly likely outside of career norms and not to be achieved again. I think this, plus Jones’ inability to play defense, should have been obvious reasons to not return him this season. And who here was watching the game? Benetti didn’t really hold back on objective critiquing of the reaction of the crowd and actually siding with them without flat out stating that he agreed with them (if you take the reaction to mean Jones should be cut). That caught me be surprise. He’s not wrong at all. It just wasn’t commentary that I expected. Scales was in the booth with him. I suspect he was caught off guard as well. He offered some commentary about it being a difficult role to PH and not always know when to be ready. I don’t think he was excusing Jones’ season at all, and I certainly understand that role isn’t for everybody. I said this several games ago and nothing that has been done has changed my mind.....I would rather see Carpenter or Keith hit against a LH pitcher over Jones. They would have better results than what Jones has produced. Isn't there a single RH bat in Toledo or on waivers Harris could pick up? Jones is as close to totally useless as any player in MLB. I feel for the guy, he's prolly a nice guy and a good team mate. But...he's just not producing. Harris needs to take away the ability of Hinch of using him. Stubborn managers don't make good decisions. Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 21 Posted June 21 I've said before that having a bad bullpen is going to make any manager look bad, the arms he has are the arms he has to use and you've got so many inning to fill you can't really hide guys - but the pinch hitting thing is pretty much pure option, position players don't need relief to save them going 9 innings. 🤔 2 Quote
Sports_Freak Posted June 21 Posted June 21 6 hours ago, IdahoBert said: OPTIMIST! I hope you’re right it would be nice to have something work out. With Mize, Flaherty and Skubal possibly gone, there's 0% possibility Melton will be moved. It would take a huge, huge return of multiple players to even be considered. 1 Quote
NorthWoods Posted June 21 Posted June 21 10 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: With Mize, Flaherty and Skubal possibly gone, there's 0% possibility Melton will be moved. It would take a huge, huge return of multiple players to even be considered. Even beyond the cost controlled aspect, keeping Melton along with Valdez and Montero gives us the core of a decent rotation. If Jobe can make it back we won't be in horrible shape there. 1 Quote
IdahoBert Posted June 21 Posted June 21 13 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: With Mize, Flaherty and Skubal possibly gone, there's 0% possibility Melton will be moved. It would take a huge, huge return of multiple players to even be considered. That’s rational. There’s times when I’m a nattering nabob of negativism. 1 Quote
SeattleMike Posted June 21 Posted June 21 16 minutes ago, NorthWoods said: Even beyond the cost controlled aspect, keeping Melton along with Valdez and Montero gives us the core of a decent rotation. If Jobe can make it back we won't be in horrible shape there. Olson should be good to go next season as well. 1 Quote
monkeytargets39 Posted June 21 Posted June 21 5 minutes ago, SeattleMike said: Olson should be good to go next season as well. We absolutely cannot go into next year without a minimum of 7 legitimate SP options. Olson and Mize are made of glass. Quote
Tiger337 Posted June 21 Posted June 21 10 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said: We absolutely cannot go into next year without a minimum of 7 legitimate SP options. Olson and Mize are made of glass. I think every team needs at least 7 legit starters at the beginning of the season now. 3 Quote
Tigermojo Posted June 21 Posted June 21 Valdez, Olson, Jobe, Melton, Montero, Madden, Anderson, SGL. I feel better about this group now than I did at the start of the season. Health is still a concern going forward. Someone who is more experienced would be a good compliment. Quote
papalawrence Posted June 21 Posted June 21 5 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: So....it's not just MY opinion; Top 2 are former Tigers! Quote
Edman85 Posted June 21 Posted June 21 (edited) So an account can just throw "Data" in its name and claim a perfect metric. There is no way the inputs to that account are omniscient nor have even 10% of the necessary info going in to Hinch's decision. I saw that tweet the other day, and it looked like junk math to me. As I told my friend that sent that to me the other day, that account is hanging out on the left peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve... Edited June 21 by Edman85 2 1 Quote
casimir Posted June 21 Author Posted June 21 (edited) 9 hours ago, SeattleMike said: Olson should be good to go next season as well. Until he’s not good to go. Edited June 21 by casimir Quote
casimir Posted June 21 Author Posted June 21 8 hours ago, Tigermojo said: Valdez, Olson, Jobe, Melton, Montero, Madden, Anderson, SGL. I feel better about this group now than I did at the start of the season. Health is still a concern going forward. Someone who is more experienced would be a good compliment. I don’t know. There’s 7 guys there, but are the top end guys good enough? Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 21 Posted June 21 25 minutes ago, casimir said: I don’t know. There’s 7 guys there, but are the top end guys good enough? well I'd say 6 because I think SGL is pretty doubtful MLB material. You do have unproven #2s there after Melton. Madden has shown some flashes. Jobe and Olson have the stuff but we don't know if either can stay on the field. If they don't go fire sale at the deadline I think there is a reasonable chance Mize is back - that should be a doable deal if they aren't paying Skubal. Quote
Tiger337 Posted June 21 Posted June 21 1 hour ago, Edman85 said: So an account can just throw "Data" in its name and claim a perfect metric. There is no way the inputs to that account are omniscient nor have even 10% of the necessary info going in to Hinch's decision. I saw that tweet the other day, and it looked like junk math to me. As I told my friend that sent that to me the other day, that account is hanging out on the left peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve... It sounds like it is just a retrospect stat measuring pinch hitting and reliever success and not an evluation of manager decisions. There is no way of knowing whether a different decision would have yielded a better result. 2 Quote
gehringer_2 Posted June 21 Posted June 21 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: It sounds like it is just a retrospect stat measuring pinch hitting and reliever success and not an evluation of manager decisions. There is no way of knowing whether a different decision would have yielded a better result. you don't need much deep analysis to know that all but 3 of the last 46 decisions to PH Jones since early May have been fails and that the team has 17 blown saves. So even if the methodology is trash that does necessarily mean the conclusion is not true. and the second sentence is true in an absolute sense, but not necessarily a statistical one. Carpenter and Keith may not be very good against lefties, but they both have better career OPS splits against LHP than Jones this season. Benetti nailed the irony about Jones during the broadcast yesterday, which is that they dumped Ibanez for non performance against lefties to pick up Jones. Jones is producing less than Ibanez was, can't give you a glove, and yet they are sticking with him harder than they did with Andy, who even had the longer track record. In defense of Hinch, you can certainly lay the lack of an acquisition of a better RH PH at Harris' door if you like. Edited June 21 by gehringer_2 1 Quote
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