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The 2021 Report Card


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1 minute ago, 1776 said:

My impression from his comments is that he is going to spend judiciously. This may, and could, result in a big contract for a player. But there isn’t a promise out there that there is going to be a headliner signing. 

Well you're never gonna promise cause that would hurt bargining and you never know what the market with show. 

I just wanted to dispell that line I quote, from all indications spending is what they want to do. 

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13 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

But if a team and player go to arbitration and the player wins, does that mean the team has to pay him what the arbitrator decides? I mean, can a team just refuse and release the player?

Well yes, that is my understanding. The team needs to have it's strategy crystal clear going in.  If the Team makes any final offer, they run the risk that the arbitrator might sign with the player, and  then they are locked in

THAT IS THE MAIN INCENTIVE we see when we hear about a team "avoiding arbitration" by negotiating a new contract with the player before going in to arbitration.

Alternatively,  we often read in the records where a player is "granted free agency"  That can be a situation where the involved parties were unable to reach an agreement, the ball club did not want to put a figure in front of the arbitrator for fear they might side with the player.....so the ball club non tenders the player, they become a free agent, AND THEN THE ORIGINAL  BALL CLUB can still sign them later after the player has a chance to test the market, and see if there is much interest.

My personal opinion, but I believe that in such a scenario, the ball  club is gambling that not too many other ball clubs are going to be interested in paying what the player is asking.....so the clubs decision to non-tender might be seen in the light of a "dose of reality"

If, on the other hand, the ballclub has genuine apprehension about exposing such a player to free agency, that is their incentive to bargain in good faith and avoid arbitration in the first place

Edited by Useful Idiot
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15 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

Well, I think that the concept you prefer personally would be if they "non-tendered" Boyd, but in the context of the arbitration process, (which is what we we discussing) the CORRECT terminology would be final offer, and not as you  stated "qualifying" offer.

They may choose to nontender him as a means of avoiding arbitration....but that is a separate matter.

No...

Non-Tendering is SPECIFICALLY what I was talking about. Or in other words: that "separate matter" is the specific matter I was referring to...

I stated: Do NOT give him an offer.

If the semantics say that the correct terminology is non-tender Boyd, and I was using "do NOT extend a qualifying offer"... than that is just on me for using the wrong terminology...

I was definitely NOT talking about giving him an arbitration offer, or "final offer". 

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15 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

Perhaps you could share a little understanding on the following:  Who is going to be paying for Boyd's surgery?  O always had the uninformed opinion that the ball clubs pay for this sort of thing. If they intend to non-tender him, then they can't be too wild about paying for a surgery that does not present a tangible benefit to them?

I'm sure that Boyd could easily afford it out of his own pocket, but that's not the way I've always thought it worked.

Perhaps there is some "double platinum" version of workman's comp that also includes elective surgeries? 

Isn't that going to be under insurance. 

Teams might pay premiums (or a portion, not certain about CBA); but they do not have to "pay" - directly - for surgeries.

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11 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

I don't think you can plan on Boyd to pitch in 2022 so based on that you non tender him and then negotiate an incentive laden deal with a very low base allowing Boyd to rehab with the team. pay for play with the ream showing goodwill for the surgery and rehab. Or ...

This.

(And NOT the "Or" last sentence...). "Just say NO" to Boyd 2023...

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Just now, 1984Echoes said:

No...

 

I was definitely NOT talking about giving him an arbitration offer, or "final offer". 

These were your EXACT words: "Don't you have to extend a QO? To get arbitration?"

I was trying to clarify that the proper terminology related to arbitration was "final" offer, and not "qualifying offer" as your comment attempts to suggest.

It has nothing to do with your personal opinion of Boyd or your dreary assessment of what you'd like to see done with him

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4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Isn't that going to be under insurance. 

Teams might pay premiums (or a portion, not certain about CBA); but they do not have to "pay" - directly - for surgeries.

My curiosity is based upon a desire to know with facts, not opinion.  A lot of the surgeries that major league players get, are elective.  How many insurance companies cover elective surgeries?

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7 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

These were your EXACT words: "Don't you have to extend a QO? To get arbitration?" ....

And in a dozen posts I said:

"DON'T extend a QO". 

"RELEASE HIM".

"I DON'T want him on the 2022 MLB roster".

"Do NOT sign Boyd for 2022".

But somehow... you think that means; "Hey, let's extend him an offer!"

No, I do NOT WANT Boyd on the 2022 MLB roster. Is that clear enough for you yet?

The correct answers to the question: "Don't you have to extend a QO? To get arbitration?" are:

1) No. QO's have nothing to do with arbitration.

2) No, if a candidate is non-tendered, they do not get arbitration. If a team extends an offer, arbitration begins.

See? I answered my own question.

 

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Personally, after the way the 2021 season shook out for Boyd, I don't think he is in a position to bargain from strength in arbitration. So he'll have a strong incentive to settle before hand. How the Tigers proceed might be interesting.  If they want to play hardball, they might non-tender him, and then hope to stiff him with a  lower figure than he currently was making.

If the Tigers go out and get top tier FA pitching this off season, then I think the non-tender and then resign at a lower figure strategy makes sense.  BUT, if they do not go out and catch a whale, then I think they will negotiate and sign a deal with Boyd prior to arb.

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What SoCalTiger said:

Non-tender him.

Offer an incentive-laden minor league contract with a low-base so: (1) He can rehab all he needs to in the system, (2) if he doesn't make it back to the Tigers we're not paying big money, (3) I suggested an opt-out by mid-July so if he can't get back to MLB with us than he can be released and try with another team, (4) if he does make it back to Detroit, let's say by mid-season or late-June or whatever... he can make up for some of the lost money with those incentives, (5) He's a free agent at the end of the season. That's it for me. 

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20 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Provide the proof of elective surgeries. Because that sure does sound like an opinion.

You can do a search for "player opt's for Tommy John surgery" and will get quite a few hits. Garrett Anderson should be one of them.

There was also a mindset for a while that getting TJ surgery would enable a player to perform afterwards superior to what he originally was...which while that concept was disputed,  it was used as a rationale in some players ELECTING to go with TJ surgery instead of alternative strategy commonly called  "conservative care"

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2785817-garrett-richards-reportedly-opting-to-have-tommy-john-surgery-out-for-season

 

Tommy John's own son is a doctor who believes that players OPT for the surgery often when it's unneeded :

https://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/tommy-john-surgery-evolution-and-an-alternative-to-being-cut/#:~:text=A total of 296 out,requires between 12-18 months.

 

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3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

 

Show me the data, and not the one-off anecdotal "story" or opinion BS that you just posted.

 Clearly there are published works that support my earlier statement, you asked, and I provided.  I believe that  it's your turn now to prove your side of the argument.

Show me evidence that Major League Baseball players are covered by health insurance that includes elective procedures.

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8 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

 Clearly there are published works that support my earlier statement, you asked, and I provided.  I believe that  it's your turn now to prove your side of the argument.

Show me evidence that Major League Baseball players are covered by health insurance that includes elective procedures.

Your published works are opinion.

You said you're interested in facts only.

Quit posting opinion pieces.

Provide facts.

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10 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

... Show me evidence that Major League Baseball players are covered by health insurance that includes elective procedures.

PS: YOU are the one who said MLB players get elective surgeries. So YOU provide the evidence that they are GETTING elective surgeries. Otherwise... you're completely full of it.

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Just now, 1984Echoes said:

PS: YOU are the one who said MLB players get elective surgeries. So YOU provide the evidence that they are GETTING elective surgeries. Otherwise... you're completely full of it.

If you read the published sources I provided, there is ample evidence to support what I said. 

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This is like arguing with a piece of wood.

Do you not understand this? At all?

"Los Angeles Angels pitcher Garrett Richards has opted to undergo Tommy John surgery after an MRI on Wednesday revealed damage to the ulnar collateral ligament in his right elbow"

That's NOT ELECTIVE SURGERY Useful IDIOT. "DAMAGE to the UCL"... is not ELECTIVE.

And NO, the sources you provided do NOT give ample evidence.

I'm done. I'm not arguing with you anymore.

Edited by 1984Echoes
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On 10/5/2021 at 1:20 PM, 1984Echoes said:

Isn't that going to be under insurance. 

Teams might pay premiums (or a portion, not certain about CBA); but they do not have to "pay" - directly - for surgeries.

Facts:

Who pays for Tommy John surgery in MLB?: 
Bridget Winters, Bachelor’s Degree Operations and Supply Chain Management, Cleveland State University (2018)
I used to work for the Cleveland Indians and usually the insurance they have for the players covers most of it and whatever that doesn’t cover, the team does.
Logo   Major League Baseball (MLB)

Major League Baseball (MLB) Benefits   

109 Ratings

Our Benefits

We know that our employees' performance is directly related the environment that they're in. That's why at MLB, we provide exceptional Medical, Dental and Vision Coverage - premiums 100 percent employer covered - so you can focus on being your best.

 

What type of medical coverage do MLB teams carry?

John Finn, Research Expert and Statistician at Self-Employment (1990-present)
Full coverage by their teams. This goes for injuries/ailments that are not sports related too... because in reality, all injuries/ailments effect how they play sports. Jon Lester had to deal with Cancer and Ryan Westmoreland had to deal with a malformation in his brain. They were covered by the Red Sox. Sadly, Westmoreland never made it to the big leagues. 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2016/09/09/worried-about-your-aces-100-million-arm-there-is-insurance-for-that/

(This is insuring the entire contract, not just TJ).

 


 
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21 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Facts:

Who pays for Tommy John surgery in MLB?: 
Bridget Winters, Bachelor’s Degree Operations and Supply Chain Management, Cleveland State University (2018)
I used to work for the Cleveland Indians and usually the insurance they have for the players covers most of it and whatever that doesn’t cover, the team does.
 

Thanks for the additional info. There was just something about your assertion at 1:20 Tuesday insisting that the team pays for none of it, that just seemed wrong.

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On 10/5/2021 at 2:37 PM, 1984Echoes said:

PS: YOU are the one who said MLB players get elective surgeries. So YOU provide the evidence that they are GETTING elective surgeries. Otherwise... you're completely full of it.

Gary Sheffield comes to mind.. As I recall, he went through an extended period ELECTING to either have additional surgeries or alternatively to just "play  hurt". 

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/19/sports/baseball-sheffield-will-play-with-hurt-shoulder.html

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