1984Echoes

Yep.

PS: Petry was NOT a great D'man for the Habs. He was barely average, and NOT the defensive defenseman that Holl is. He was a -131 in 16 NHL years. He DID score almost an average of 40 points per year in his best years with Montreal. But was still a -47 in those "best" years even despite those points. Is that your definition of "great"? Just wondering...

That's not stopping me from swapping Hamonic out for Holl back in... At all.

Sign Duren to his extension. And find the key "3rd Star". It's not Ivey I don't believe. And Ausar and Stew and others on the team right now, IMO, are the "4th guy" or the supporting stars to 1. Cade; 2. (for now) Duren; And 3. ...? I know the sentiment on the forum is not the same as mine... But my top 3 "3rd Stars" are JJJ, Markkanen, and Myles Turner. None of them may be available... but they are the top 3 on my want list. Duren may have to wait on his extension until all the "other" pieces on the Pistons stop moving so the Pistons can sign him and go over the cap if necessary. Just some thoughts of mine...

I want.

Yep. 100%

I do get this part. I know some of the complaints on Holl are joking... although not all of them (I don't know who is joking and who is serious in their dislike of Holl... I don't read people well enough to get that distinction...) Don't feel bad. I wasn't so much picking on you as I really wanted to vent on Holl. I've always liked him. And I understand his abilities/ weaknesses so it's not like I'm pushing him to be 1st or 2nd pair... I just like him as that 3rd pair vet that allows an offensive/ young guy to be matched up with him. So I wanted to make it known the full extent of my Holl support. Thank you, sloth!!! 😁

Last year was one year. From 2019 through 2023-24, he paced at about +15 per year for a full schedule. So one bad year in 2024-25 means that's it? He's done? He's garbage that is no different than what Hamonic is offering on ice, right now? I still don't get that sentiment. If I want a 3rd pairing stay-at-home defenseman who makes good decisions (for the most part) and throws out good outlet passes, but otherwise "stays at home"... then that is absolutely Holl, IMO. It certainly isn't Hamonic. And if the team wants ASP or Johansson to jump into the offense... and have one responsible D-man who allows those guys to do that... isn't that Chiarot? On a 2nd pair with ASP? And isn't that Holl,,. on a 3rd pair with Johansson? Because in my opinion, it ABSOLUTELY is Holl on the 3rd pair with Johansson. Hamonic can go play in Grand Rapids. Maybe JBD could be brought into the 3rd pair RHD discussion... but I think he's having some growing pains right now... Who is better to get in JBD's ear about what is required to be a good 3rd pair RHD stay-at-home defender who makes smart decisions and good outlet passes...? Oh, yeah... that also ABSOLUTELY would be Holl. NOT Hamonic. You said you don't think the difference between Harmonic and Holl would make an impact? I HEARTILY disagree.

Babe Ruth was an exception. Most players were paid peanuts. But for the past 50 years, with the advent of free agency... Yes, fans (and owners too, but they're just "crying wolf"... mostly) have been complaining about the high salaries... and, legitimately, high game (ticket, parking, concession) costs as a result.

PS: What is Wallinder's window, in your opinion? Can you describe it please (I'm just trying to get at what you're thinking on this... not trying to be an ass...)? Meaning, how much time does he have before Yzerman tosses him out of our system?

On Tuomisto - agree, if his speed is a problem at GR, it's certainly going to be worse in the NHL. Your criticisms of Wallinder may be 100% accurate... but I don't believe that is any kind of "death knell" for Wallinder as a prospect. Which it seems as though you are doing in your posts on him. If the message is simply: "Dude, you have to get stronger/tougher...", and that's it. Well, I am certainly hoping that that is not a bridge too far for Wallinder to cross. So... maybe he just needs a little more time to add strength and toughness. I have to believe someone can get past that type of hurdle. And if the team is being conservative with him, even as he DOES add strength and toughness... that's OK too... it just means they are taking it slow with him... also NOT an indictment of his NHL potential. Or... as you said, maybe they can handle one pair loaded with rookie mistakes (ASP on the 2nd) but do not want to deal with the 3rd pairing also exposed to any (Wallinder) rookie mistakes. Too much for one team/ coach/ roster/ older and slower goalie pair... to put up with. Lastly... I was thinking the same on Buium. He's looking (err, he was before he got nicked up) fast and dangerous and a net positive as a D. But we'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out. Even if I'm chomping at the bit here... quite a lot.

I'm sorry... but I disagree with this sentiment. Holl, 2019-22: +58 +/- (4 years, all with Toronto = +14.5 average) Detroit 2023: +8 in 38 games (+16 pace) Detroit 2024: -7 in 73 games. Not good, but not atrocious either. 33 years old. Maybe a bad year. Maybe age. But he's been a good defensive defenseman for a long time, including for Detroit in 2023. Seems like a good (vet, experience) 3rd pairing guy... to me. Hamonic, 2021-24: -25 +/- (4 years = -6 average), 35 years old. This year: -9 in 14 games. Ouch. Atrocious! Chiarot, 2020-24: -79 +/- (5 years = -16 average), 34 years old. Ouch. Atrocious! This year: +3 in 23 games. Mostly as a 2nd pairing... Not bad. My first question is: Why is Chiarot looked at as a 1st/2nd pairing guy who is really good? For the Wings. Seems like a 3rd pairing guy and that is IT. I don't want him on the top pairing... Although I do think he is a good guy to pair up with ASP because ASP needs a vet presence next to him (IMO), and as a lighter D, I like heavy-Chiarot as his partner... I can live with that. But why is Holl looked at as some kind of abomination? I think that's completely ridiculous and I just don't understand you guys. It's not just you SFK, everyone on here holds the same sentiment. And I don't get it. I've WATCHED him. And it seems like every time I am watching him he makes positive plays for the team. he's not perfect, he makes mistakes, but very few as I've watched him... And maybe he's an old 33... But still don't understand such negative sentiment on Holl. He's certainly NOT worse than Hamonic, and he's been more of a positive on this team than Chiarot (as a 3rd pair D where Chiarot was definitely miscast, although forced into being... the top pair D.. I do understand that...) I WANT Holl as a 3rd pair D. I think he's the same quality vet D guy, same as Chiarot, that I want matched up with a Johansson, or a Wallinder (if he EVER gets up here to Detroit...). Neither are 1st or 2nd pair D. Unless matched up with a rookie or other young guy on the 2nd pair that needs a steady partner to talk/help them get through NHL play. IMO. I don't get the abject hatred of Holl. It just doesn't make sense to me. Just my 2 cents. (EDIT: Fixed a bunch of grammar/keying errors...)

Or for that matter, is Hamonic?

Is ASP good enough? Your opinion, please.

Knee-jerk conservatism rather than calculated risk-taking. IMO.

Call up Wallinder. Send Hamonic down and call up Holl. 1st pair Chiarot-Seider 2nd pair Johansson-ASP 3rd pair Wallinder-Holl And if they REALLY wanted to get crazy, throw Wallinder right out into the top pair with Mo and tell him he has to play defense 1st. Wallinder-Seider Chiarot-ASP Johansson-Holl. I like that even better simply because Chiarot is not on the top pair. Heck, let's just see what happens...

Send down Soderblom (what is he doing for the team right now anyways...?) And call up Wallinder. Just a few games to let him get his feet wet and see what the NHL is all about. Until Simon gets back. It'll pay off in the future... IMO.

Hamonic is worse than JBD. Right now, and I mean right after this game, I wanna send Hamonic down to GR and call up Holl. Holl was never this (Hamonic) bad... He didn't play well last year... But as a 3rd pair defensive RHD, Holl is good enough. Better than Hamonic. And let JBD work on his game some more...

Or maybe it was just a mirage.

A vision of a dream of an outline of a concept of a plan.

So, keying on this part: What are our options? Or who is the best trade target for us? ... That is available, and whom the other team will take on Harris (plus whatever else is required...).

Memphis says "No, we're not trading JJJ." Utah says "No, we're not trading Markkanen." Milwaukee says: "OK, we'll do a Myles Turner for Harris trade. We'll need 'this' 'this' and 'this'. " A) If we can't get JJJ or Markkanen... would we have interest in a Harris for Turner trade? B) What would that trade look like that both Detroit and the Bucks both say "yes, that works." ... ?

Donald J. Trump AND HIS MAGA supporters... Kissing Putin's boots... Again.

But you still have a dependency problem. TDS or Trump Dependency Syndrome tells me you still have something... Out of equilibrium. The first step is admitting you have a problem. That's always the hardest step (the first one). You should go see a psychiatrist. IMO.

Let me amend that (I'm probably STUCK on Buehler being a REALLY good pitcher 5 years ago...) 1st choice for reclamation starting pitchers (IMO) are Manoah and Zac Gallen. THEN Buehler (maybe) if Harris can't land one of those 1st choices...