The Gaza War

[oblong]

If someone cannot see a moral difference between IDF's actions during warfare and Hamas then they are lost and not worth arguing with.

If Israel truly wanted a palestinian genocide then they would have done it already.  It's pure antisemitism.  Brainwashed masses.  We have nazis among us today and are reliving WWII.   A large segment of these protesters don't even think Oct 7 happened.  They think Hamas are the good guys.  The palestinian cause has morphed into Jan 6 election denialism.  It's the same thing.  Ignore truths that are inconvenient because of "sides".

 

[MIguy]

I don't get why everyone feels the need to take a side on this.  In my opinion, all the sides suck.

Israel - Steals land and kicks people out of the homes

Hamas - Terrorists

Palestinians - Terrorist supporters

 

[oblong]

Even if both sides suck I will lean more on the side that doesn't use rape as a weapon of war and cut off babies heads or burn them alive in their cribs and executes people in front of their children.

Israel is always expected to turn the other cheek because many on the left condescend to the palestinians that they just don't know any better.  

[MIguy]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

Even if both sides suck I will lean more on the side that doesn't use rape as a weapon of war and cut off babies heads or burn them alive in their cribs and executes people in front of their children.

Israel is always expected to turn the other cheek because many on the left condescend to the palestinians that they just don't know any better.  

I'm positive that Hamas engages in vile acts, but you're repeating unverified claims about beheaded and burned babies that have even been walked back by Israel.  The propaganda from both sides is so off the charts that the only thing we can be certain of is that both sides want to kill the other. 

[chasfh]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:54 AM, oblong said:

If someone cannot see a moral difference between IDF's actions during warfare and Hamas then they are lost and not worth arguing with.

I don't think we know what the IDF's actions are during warfare in Gaza any more than we knew what the US's actions were during warfare in Iraq/Afghanistan/etc. Everything we think we know is what people with interest are communicating to us.

[ewsieg]

22 hours ago, MIguy said:

I'm positive that Hamas engages in vile acts, but you're repeating unverified claims about beheaded and burned babies that have even been walked back by Israel.  The propaganda from both sides is so off the charts that the only thing we can be certain of is that both sides want to kill the other. 

Both sides suck, i'll give you that, but it's like comparing Trump to Biden.  One side is way suckier.

Israel is still in a vengeful response mode and is still taking steps to act like a westernized military.  They are not perfect, nor is anyone claiming that.   There has been walk back on some statements by the press and Biden about beheaded babies, but there are still first responders that claim they saw it.  As for burned babies, that has not been walked back, the only thing is that officially we do not know yet if they were killed and later burned, or burned alive.  Entire families were burned alive in their safe rooms which I guess you could argue means they weren't burned alive as flames didn't cause their death, just the heat from their house on fire around them.

When one side claims they only killed children and killed and raped women, but is defended with a c'mon, don't accuse them of beheading or burning them alive, they're not savages....you're not talking about a moral equivalency.   As a whole I expect IDF soldiers will spend their lives seeking forgiveness for innocent lives they took, or simply lives they took, Hamas fighters will just be wondering when they'll be able to strike again.  

[chasfh]

59 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Both sides suck, i'll give you that, but it's like comparing Trump to Biden.  One side is way suckier.

Israel is still in a vengeful response mode and is still taking steps to act like a westernized military.  They are not perfect, nor is anyone claiming that.   There has been walk back on some statements by the press and Biden about beheaded babies, but there are still first responders that claim they saw it.  As for burned babies, that has not been walked back, the only thing is that officially we do not know yet if they were killed and later burned, or burned alive.  Entire families were burned alive in their safe rooms which I guess you could argue means they weren't burned alive as flames didn't cause their death, just the heat from their house on fire around them.

When one side claims they only killed children and killed and raped women, but is defended with a c'mon, don't accuse them of beheading or burning them alive, they're not savages....you're not talking about a moral equivalency.   As a whole I expect IDF soldiers will spend their lives seeking forgiveness for innocent lives they took, or simply lives they took, Hamas fighters will just be wondering when they'll be able to strike again.  

I don't think Biden sucks at all. I think he's great and I'm definitely rooting for him to win next year, and not just for Agent Orange to lose.

[MIguy]

2 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Both sides suck, i'll give you that, but it's like comparing Trump to Biden.  One side is way suckier.

 

There aren't just two sides here, there are three.  I'm starting to think that people intentionally leave Palestinians out of the equation because it makes it easier to side with Israel if your choices are only them and the terrorists.  

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by MIguy

[ewsieg]

1 minute ago, MIguy said:

There aren't just two sides here, there are three.  I'm starting to think that people intentionally leave Palestinians out of the equation because it makes it easier to side with Israel if your choices are only them and the terrorists.  

 

Some certainly are, but many on the left in this country seem to take Hamas out of the equation and point to just what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.  To say it's a nuanced and complex situation still does not give it justice.  

I'm not a fan of what Israel has done in some of the disputed territories, but at the same time, Israel is the one that has been consistently attacked and has still given land back over the last 60 or so years.  They have sat at the table and agreed to a 2 state solution, they have been willing to accept peace, the other side hasn't.  

 

[MIguy]

11 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Some certainly are, but many on the left in this country seem to take Hamas out of the equation and point to just what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.  To say it's a nuanced and complex situation still does not give it justice.  

I'm not a fan of what Israel has done in some of the disputed territories, but at the same time, Israel is the one that has been consistently attacked and has still given land back over the last 60 or so years.  They have sat at the table and agreed to a 2 state solution, they have been willing to accept peace, the other side hasn't.  

 

The far left have zero credibility, they're as bad as Trump supporters as far as I'm concerned.

As for past proposals for a two state solution, of course Israel has supported them as every division of land has greatly favored them.  What we haven't seen is Israel being willing to go back to the drawing board and give up land to get a deal done.  You also can't ignore the fact that Israel has been slowly stealing territory over the past several decades and evicting people from their homes.  

[ewsieg]

14 minutes ago, MIguy said:

The far left have zero credibility, they're as bad as Trump supporters as far as I'm concerned.

As for past proposals for a two state solution, of course Israel has supported them as every division of land has greatly favored them.  What we haven't seen is Israel being willing to go back to the drawing board and give up land to get a deal done.  You also can't ignore the fact that Israel has been slowly stealing territory over the past several decades and evicting people from their homes.  

You can certainly make the argument though that while 1967 was a pre-emptive attack from Israel, they were responding to attacks on them.  In war, you lose or gain land.  They gained a lot.  To achieve peace, they gave back land to Egypt and Syria.  Even though no peace was offered they even walked out of Gaza.  Settlers in the West Bank were actually a first line of defense.  If no peace is offered, why not just use what you already took?  Again, simplistic/high level view, but it once again is not comparable to what Hamas has done, whenever they get a chance too.

[1984Echoes]

45 minutes ago, MIguy said:

There aren't just two sides here, there are three.  I'm starting to think that people intentionally leave Palestinians out of the equation because it makes it easier to side with Israel if your choices are only them and the terrorists.  

 

Here's the funny thing:

Hamas IS the Palestinians.

What? Do people think Hamas is imported from Egypt or something?

The IDF estimated 30,000 to 40,000 Hamas armed terrorists in Gaza. Those 30-40K Hamas...? ARE Gazans (Palestinians). They are not Saudis, or Turks, or Egyptians, they ARE Palestinians. Hamas RECRUITS Gazans (Palestinians). Hamas is MADE UP of Gazans (Palestinians), in Gaza, (can't say outside of Gaza, or top leadership which could come from any Palestinian camp or Gaza or West Bank...). 

Palestinians (at least those in Gaza) are not a "third" side. They are deeply intertwined with Hamas, and ARE Hamas.

[MIguy]

1 minute ago, ewsieg said:

You can certainly make the argument though that while 1967 was a pre-emptive attack from Israel, they were responding to attacks on them.  In war, you lose or gain land.  They gained a lot.  To achieve peace, they gave back land to Egypt and Syria.  Even though no peace was offered they even walked out of Gaza.  Settlers in the West Bank were actually a first line of defense.  If no peace is offered, why not just use what you already took?  Again, simplistic/high level view, but it once again is not comparable to what Hamas has done, whenever they get a chance too.

I'm referring more to recent events as far as taking land.  What Israel has been doing for the last few decades or so is moving into new territory, claiming they need to occupy if for their own security and then eventually evicting Palestinians from their homes and moving their own people in or in some cases, bulldozing the neighborhood and building something new.   

[1984Echoes]

38 minutes ago, MIguy said:

... As for past proposals for a two state solution, of course Israel has supported them as every division of land has greatly favored them.  What we haven't seen is Israel being willing to go back to the drawing board ...

What I have seen over the past few decades is that whenever a deal would start to get close enough, Palestinian militants would start an Intifada or some other violent action to skupper the deal as they DON'T want a deal... they want the Jews exterminated. That's Hamas' philosophy.

I'm not calling Israel innocent, they are not. Yes, they've stolen or threatened or used "illegal construction" to demolish homes and used the courts as well, and other "pseudo-legalisms", to steal land.

They have been repressive and Palestinian violence has in good part been because of Israeli actions.

But I've also seen violence coming directly out of the possibility of finalizing a two-state solution. There are large Palestinian elements who do NOT want a two-state solution. And most likely large Israeli factions as well. This toxic mix has produced nothing but heartache or worse for the majority of Palestinians who would just like to have a normal, decent life, in their own country not beset by Israeli interference or repression or theft, not beset by corrupt Palestinian authorities who do not help the situation, nor beset by Palestinian factions unwilling to allow Jews to live in Jewish ancestral homelands but willing to use violence whenever it suits them resulting in more death and angst for the Palestinians who just want to end this cycle.

I don't see an end to this cycle. And it is NOT all in Israeli hands to end this cycle, in fact they've given up and are simply making a push to grab as much land as they can at this point. No, it is also in the hands of Hamas' since they REJECT a two-state solution and have a multi-decade record of murder and violence whenever the two-state solution gets close enough to implement. 

So how do you see an end to this cycle when HAMAS will do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to THWART a two-state solution?

Edited November 28, 2023 by 1984Echoes

[MIguy]

There is no end to it as both sides hate each other because of some silly ass belief in a magic invisible sky wizard and want the land for themselves.   That said, claiming that Israel is "simply making a push to grab as much land as possible" sure sounds like a defense of their actions.  How can anyone possibly think that Israel is justified in taking territory that isn't theirs?  Pretty much the entire international community agrees that their continued taking of land in the West Bank to violate international law but most, including the USA, turn a blind eye to it. 

So yeah, one side has consistently refused to accept a two state solution, but at the same time, the other continues stealing land so I have no idea how anyone can say one side is better than the other.  Maybe the best solution here would be to order everyone to evacuate the region and then turn it into a glass parking lot, uninhabitable by anyone. 

 

[Jim Cowan]

Hamas does not want a two state solution.  Neither does Netanyahu.  It isn't in the best interests of either of them.

[1984Echoes]

that's the very short (and effective) version of what I said...

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

that's the very short (and effective) version of what I said...

Netanyahu can't survive without Hamas, and vice versa.  They are each other's perfect foil.  So let's not blame the lack of a two state solution on Hamas.  If Netanyahu had wanted a two state solution it would have happened a long time ago. He is the main reason why the two state solution was not implemented years ago.  

[gehringer_2]

7 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Netanyahu can't survive without Hamas, and vice versa.  They are each other's perfect foil.  So let's not blame the lack of a two state solution on Hamas.  If Netanyahu had wanted a two state solution it would have happened a long time ago. He is the main reason why the two state solution was not implemented years ago.  

Then again, what makes anyone think Abbas would sign on to deal that Arafat walked away from? On the the problems is too many cooks in the kitchen.

[pfife]

Do people think Bibi would agree to the arrangement Ehud Barak agreed to?

[1984Echoes]

7 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Netanyahu can't survive without Hamas, and vice versa.  They are each other's perfect foil.  So let's not blame the lack of a two state solution on Hamas.  If Netanyahu had wanted a two state solution it would have happened a long time ago. He is the main reason why the two state solution was not implemented years ago.  

The two state solution was broken a decade prior to Netanyahu. By Hamas.

So... yes, let's blame it on Hamas. Initially.

Netanyahu joined in because it suited his purposes perfectly. As did all of the other "Ultra" or extremist-factions in Israel. But he is NOT the main reason, initially, that the 1993 Oslo Accords fell apart. He came to that "party", LATER. It was Hamas that broke that agreement, first and foremost. And I'm not calling Israel innocent in the matter either. Just trying to get facts/ timeline straightened out.

Yes, both extremist sides are each other's perfect foil.

[ewsieg]

There is an argument there is no Netanyahu without Hamas, but there still would be Hamas without Netanyahu.  There were legitimate chances at a two state solution that Netanyahu was not a part of and also did not happen at no fault of the Israeli's.  

Netanyahu and his supporters pointed to what Hamas said is their goal, to eliminate Israel, pointed to the failed two state policy attempts rejected by Palestine, and sold to his supporters that if you can't reason with them, you need to be strong to ensure they can't conquer you.  At a high level, it's legitimate reasoning.  What comes after is the issue with Israel.  That Netanyahu gov't wants to remain in power, it must to save Israel is their thinking, so then it helps prop up Hamas because it ensures it's people are reminded of the enemy.  This only ensures the fighting.  Israel isn't clean in this situation either and nothing wrong with pointing that out, but it's still not comparable to what Hamas has and would like to do to Israel.

[1984Echoes]

Netanyahu's and his supporters are extremist West Bank land grabbers. That's what always has kept him in power.

Hamas is the perfect foil, as Jim calls them, for that purpose.

[oblong]

19 hours ago, MIguy said:

There aren't just two sides here, there are three.  I'm starting to think that people intentionally leave Palestinians out of the equation because it makes it easier to side with Israel if your choices are only them and the terrorists.  

 

I view many, maybe most, Palestinians as victims of Hamas.  There's a massive misinformation campaign going on and it is making many people, including young people and media here in the US, ignorant.  I've had local people consistently tell me Hamas are not terrorists.  It's a culture thing.  I live in Dearborn and have many Arab and Muslim friends.  They are scared for their family and friends back home.  I get it.  But the blame falls squarely on Hamas and they will never admit to that.  Too many leaders in that world and community are too sympathetic to Hamas and share the goal of Israel not existing.

Hostage exchanges are treated as equal between the two sides when one group is turning over 3 year olds and the other are turning over failed suicide bombers.

 

[smr-nj]

4 minutes ago, oblong said:

 

Hostage exchanges are treated as equal between the two sides when one group is turning over 3 year olds and the other are turning over failed suicide bombers.

 

But , it’s not a “hostage exchange”.

Hamas is turning over hostages.  Israel is releasing prisoners.