gehringer_2 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 From David French: A sobering look at what Israel and the Palestinian civilians of Gaza are facing. Some excerpts: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/12/opinion/israel-hamas-isis-gaza.html Quote The instant I understood the scale of Hamas’s attack on Israel, I understood the probable response. As I read reports of Hamas terrorists murdering entire families, raping Israeli women beside the bodies of their dead friends and dragging Israeli hostages into Gaza, it was apparent that Hamas had chosen to behave like ISIS, and if it behaved like ISIS, then the Israel Defense Forces were justified in treating Hamas in Gaza the same way the United States and its allies treated ISIS in Iraq. The comparison is not lost on Israel. After the attack, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, “Hamas is ISIS. And just as the forces of civilization united to defeat ISIS, the forces of civilization must support Israel in defeating Hamas.” This means Israel’s goal is not to punish Hamas but to defeat it — to remove it from power in Gaza the way the Iraqi military, the United States and their allies removed ISIS from Mosul, Falluja, Ramadi and every other city ISIS controlled in Iraq. That can’t be accomplished by air power alone. If removing Hamas from power is the goal, then that almost certainly means soldiers and tanks fighting in Gazan cities, block by block, house to house in an area of roughly two million people. ....... Put all this together, and you can immediately perceive Israel’s asymmetric challenge. Hamas scorns the law of war. The reports of its intentional mass killing, mutilation, rape and civilian hostage taking are evidence enough of that fact. Israel legally and morally obligates the Israel Defense Forces to comply with the law. As a result, civilians become one of Hamas’s principal military assets. The presence of civilians gives Hamas the ability to punch first in any given street fight. The presence of civilians raises the bar for approving airstrikes or any other use of long-range weapons. And when civilians die, Hamas uses their deaths to inflame the international community and to help run out the clock on international patience for Israeli military operations. Even worse, Hamas is helped by an enormous amount of public ignorance combined with outright misinformation. The average journalist — much less the average citizen — doesn’t know much, if anything, about the laws of war. Let’s take, for example, two key legal concepts that will be relevant every single day of the fighting in Gaza: proportionality and distinction. As the war continues and as the destruction mounts, you will hear a number of voices condemn Israel for a disproportionate response, but many of these critics fundamentally misunderstand what proportionality means in the law of war. The U.S. Army’s “Law of Land Warfare” field manual — which is deeply grounded in the international law of armed conflict and governed our urban operations in Iraq and Afghanistan — defines the legal obligation of proportionality as requiring “commanders to refrain from attacks in which the expected loss or injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects incidental to such attacks would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage expected to be gained.” It also requires that commanders “take feasible precautions to reduce the risk of harm to civilians, other protected persons and civilian objects.” Proportionality does not require the Israel Defense Forces to respond with the same degree of force or take the same proportion of casualties as Hamas. In addition, as the manual states, “the proportionality standard does not require that no incidental harm results from attacks.” If you’re a soldier on patrol and someone fires at you with a rifle, you don’t have to respond with a rifle. You can use a tank round or a missile in response, unless you have reason to believe the tank round or missile will cause extraordinary collateral damage. But if you’re taking fire from a single house, proportionality prohibits you from destroying the entire block. Throughout the war on terrorism, American forces used powerful, longer-range weapons to attack individual targets. That does not violate the laws of war. In reality, inflicting disproportionate casualties can be one of the goals of a fighting force. Ukraine appears to have inflicted substantially greater casualties on Russia than the Russian Army has inflicted on Ukraine. That doesn’t mean Ukraine’s response was disproportionate under the law of armed conflict. In every fight, the goal is to inflict as many losses as possible on your opponent while taking as few losses as possible. There is a similar public ignorance problem with the concept of distinction, which “The Law of Land Warfare” defines as requiring combatants to distinguish “between combatants and military objectives on the one hand and civilians and civilian objects on the other in offense and defense.” Distinction requires soldiers to separate themselves from civilians by wearing uniforms, for example, or by fighting from marked military vehicles. It prohibits militaries from fighting from places like hospitals, schools and mosques. Hamas disregards the principle of distinction. Its fighters take aim from civilian buildings while wearing civilian clothes and using civilian vehicles. This presents an attacking military with serious targeting problems. It is easy to identify, say, an armored personnel carrier as a military vehicle. But what if there are four Toyota Tacomas in the street and only one is full of Hamas fighters? But here’s the key point: When Hamas abandons the principle of distinction, then Hamas is responsible for the civilian damage that results. If Hamas fights from a hospital — or stores munitions in a hospital — damage to that hospital is Hamas’s responsibility. If Hamas fighters shoot at Israel Defense Forces from a home that contains a Palestinian family, then Hamas is responsible for the civilian casualties if that family is harmed in the resulting exchange of fire. ....... Given these realities, you can see the dynamic that will unfold. Bound by the laws of war, Israel has every incentive to decrease civilian casualties. The Israel Defense Forces are already providing detailed evacuation instructions for civilians to remove them from the zones of expected conflict. Netanyahu has urged residents to leave Gaza. Disregarding the law of war, Hamas has concrete tactical and strategic reasons to keep civilians in harm’s way and capitalize on their deaths. ..... Every violation of the law should carry a consequence, but the law of war does not prevent Israel from destroying a terrorist army embedded in a civilian population. It can be done. It has been done. And as Israel embarks on perhaps its most difficult military operation since its war for independence, public clarity about the law of war will be indispensable for depriving Hamas of one of its chief propaganda weapons, and continued enforcement of the law of war can prevent atrocities that could fuel this conflict for generations to come. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Thank you for that. It's been so long that I lived under those rules that some of the finer details were a bit rusty for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben9753 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 It's a shame it's behind a paywall. I would like to share this with people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIguy Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 It is early yet in this war. However, one thing is different from past wars around the State of Israel. I don’t ever remember the US government ever giving Israel as much leeway to act as they see fit. In past wars/conflicts the US has supported Israel in a more muted response. As in some version of Israels right to defend itself, generally followed by some language stressing moderation or the like. As it stands now, the White House has a huge GO FOR IT message out there. The, “We’ve got your back’” from the Biden administration clearly gives BiBi and the IDF what they’re looking for, but may not have expected it to the degree it was given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 It's worth pointing out, be careful sharing tweets on this topic. A lot of false information out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 51 minutes ago, 1776 said: It is early yet in this war. However, one thing is different from past wars around the State of Israel. I don’t ever remember the US government ever giving Israel as much leeway to act as they see fit. In past wars/conflicts the US has supported Israel in a more muted response. As in some version of Israels right to defend itself, generally followed by some language stressing moderation or the like. As it stands now, the White House has a huge GO FOR IT message out there. The, “We’ve got your back’” from the Biden administration clearly gives BiBi and the IDF what they’re looking for, but may not have expected it to the degree it was given. The 6 day and Yom Kippur Wars were Israel against other state actors which were more or less Geneva Convention affairs. Not what is happening here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I was reading last night that Hamas penetrated Israel at 34 different locations. There are security measures including alarms and even A.I. operated machine gun nests at a number of these locations. Reports are most of the security systems were somehow disabled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I also think this particular Republican regime we have, which credits itself for its muscularity as well as its disregard for what it perceives as the weakness of diplomacy, is leading the entire America body politic rightward when it comes to military response in general. I think they’re all in on what’s basically a kill-em-all-let-god-sort-em-out approach. I believe the Biden administration feels truly differently about it, and perhaps even Netanyahu is on board with proportionality and distinction, but I don’t think our local right wingers are all that concerned with the killing of however many Gaza civilians are in the way, and they can lean on the Hamas-looks-like-civilians excuse as their get-out-of-jail-free card on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Mayhem Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 16 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: From David French: A sobering look at what Israel and the Palestinian civilians of Gaza are facing. Some excerpts: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/12/opinion/israel-hamas-isis-gaza.html Ben Shapiro (yeah, I get it, y'all hate him here) made basically the same argument as is in this article and expounds on the "why". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBzMe7yKAGk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 quite a few hard left people have entered QAnon territory with this.... along with the arab/muslims. I see it locally in my city on local pages and media goups. For example an apple orchard changes their profile pic to show they stand with israel, suddenly the 50% of my city says they are boycotting. It's a running theme of all local area busineses showing support and who not to patronize. And it's largely based on misinformation of the Jan 6 level. No matter what evidence is presented they simply will not believe what happened actually happened. They think it's all lies. I notice twitter no longer has the "mute" option. I guess you have to pay for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1/2 reminder that US TV news sucks; this is a great basic outline of what is going on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 2/2 Bibi and his pro-war faction are happy to oblige Hamas invitation to more death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Holy crap! Pete Davidson's monologue re: the Gaza attacks was really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 2 hours ago, romad1 said: Holy crap! Pete Davidson's monologue re: the Gaza attacks was really good. He was the perfect guest host at the right time, since he could speak from a position of authority on the effects of terrorist attacks on the people left behind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I don't know where this is being discussed but today I see an airstrike on a hospital in Gaza and seeing multiple tweets saying it's Israel's bomb and others saying it's from Hamas... misinformation is king now and we've reached the consequences of a post Jan 6 fake news world. Nobody will believe anything that isn't on "their side" and no matter what footage or statements show minds will not be changed. Such a dangerious time now. I have no idea what the truth is because I can't study and research... twitter used to be of some use but now it's not reliable. Everyone is stuck in their bubbles. Not both sidesing this at all because it really is confusing to me. The extremes on both sides have it in for Israel, for different reasons I guess, and the middle who support Israel, as I tend to do, are probably guilty of the same. If Hamas did it, then it's business as usual for them. If Israel did it then they need to be more careful and just take the L if if the alternative means more civilian casualties. There's supposed to be rules of war. You can't take down an entire region, just like we couldn't and shouldn't have after 9/11, even though at the time I suggested just nuking the whole middle east and starting over. Emotions run high but cooler heads are required by those with actual decision making power. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smr-nj Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 14 minutes ago, oblong said: Nobody will believe anything that isn't on "their side" and no matter what footage or statements show minds will not be changed. And this is why TRUTH matters. Chilling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I don’t know that Biden’s trip to the ME is the smartest move. I hope something positive comes of it but I’ve got my doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netnerd Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 14 minutes ago, oblong said: I don't know where this is being discussed but today I see an airstrike on a hospital in Gaza and seeing multiple tweets saying it's Israel's bomb and others saying it's from Hamas... misinformation is king now and we've reached the consequences of a post Jan 6 fake news world. Nobody will believe anything that isn't on "their side" and no matter what footage or statements show minds will not be changed. Such a dangerious time now. I have no idea what the truth is because I can't study and research... twitter used to be of some use but now it's not reliable. Everyone is stuck in their bubbles. Not both sidesing this at all because it really is confusing to me. The extremes on both sides have it in for Israel, for different reasons I guess, and the middle who support Israel, as I tend to do, are probably guilty of the same. If Hamas did it, then it's business as usual for them. If Israel did it then they need to be more careful and just take the L if if the alternative means more civilian casualties. There's supposed to be rules of war. You can't take down an entire region, just like we couldn't and shouldn't have after 9/11, even though at the time I suggested just nuking the whole middle east and starting over. Emotions run high but cooler heads are required by those with actual decision making power. If Israel is responsible for bombing a hospital, that should jeopardize American support. That's war crime-level action. How much more risky for the POTUS to come to Israel now? If Israel takes credit or gets blame for this bombing, wouldn't POTUS become a sweet target? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Just now, Netnerd said: How much more risky for the POTUS to come to Israel now? If Israel takes credit or gets blame for this bombing, wouldn't POTUS become a sweet target? Why has this trip been so publicized? Doesn’t make sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has canceled a planned meeting with U.S. President Joe Biden, following an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital on Tuesday that killed hundreds, a senior Palestinian official said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smr-nj Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 55 minutes ago, 1776 said: Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has canceled a planned meeting with U.S. President Joe Biden, following an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital on Tuesday that killed hundreds, a senior Palestinian official said. Shall we wait for some investigation of the bomb site before we determine whether it is an Israeli strike or not? Would be an incredibly stupid move for them to do this , (…. doesn’t mean that the authoritarian nature of Netanyahu precludes him doing just that), and you’d have to acknowledge that Hamas would have absolutely no qualms about doing it for the precise purpose of laying it at the feet of the Israelis. The Palestinians in Gaza who have nowhere to go, and no way to get there, are absolute war fodder… and are probably viewed that way by a whole lotta people in that region. Incredibly tragic. edit to add: some or saying the sheer size of the type of bomb it would’ve taken to kill that many people at once more likely points the finger at it being an Israeli bomb. That truly sickens me if that turns out to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Yeah who can you believe? Would Israel admit it if it were theirs? How will we ever know? Neither side will believe the result of an investigation. My gut tells me it would be stupid of Israel to do this. You lose your goodwill and moral standing and it’s unnecessary. I think Hamas is ruthless enough to kill its own to generate outrage towards Israel. But I also know vengeance is a powerful force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Israel has never worried too much about its moral standing. It hasn't ever been forced to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 The only reason the hospital was hit, by Hamas or Israel - I'm just guessing here - is that Hamas was using it for military purposes. If it blew up from a Hamas bomb then they had that internally and it blew it up in their faces, tragically. If it was Israel then they at least believed they were hitting the Hamas military; one they will have to live with confirmation or negative confirmation... if they hit Hamas bombs in the hospital with their Israeli missile(s) then it's a combination... But in either case... it'll be near-impossible to confirm one way or the other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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