The Gaza War

[RatkoVarda]

can't someone normal primary her?

 

[oblong]

1 minute ago, RatkoVarda said:

can't someone normal primary her?

 

The US rep for the area, The mayor of the city of Dearborn, and the Chair of the Wayne County Commission (Sam Beydoun) are all spreading this lie on social media.

 

[Tigeraholic1]

The far left is just as bad as the far right at spreading false information.

[1984Echoes]

55 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

The far left is just as bad as the far right at spreading false information.

It's not the far-left, it's the Muslim contingent.

I have absolutely NOTHING against the American Muslim population (VERY large in New Jersey), this is America after all. Where one can practice ANY religion, FREE of persecution. My best buddy at work is Muslim, from Pakistan.

This post is not against them at all, just a simple statement of fact: They are posting or reposting based on tribalism and disregarding actual facts. That's a semantic difference from the "far left spreading...". But my semantics are correct. This is simple tribalism hiding from facts... It doesn't even have anything to do with left versus right...

[Tigeraholic1]

5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

It's not the far-left, it's the Muslim contingent.

I have absolutely NOTHING against the American Muslim population (VERY large in New Jersey), this is America after all. Where one can practice ANY religion, FREE of persecution. My best buddy at work is Muslim, from Pakistan.

This post is not against them at all, just a simple statement of fact: They are posting or reposting based on tribalism and disregarding actual facts. That's a semantic difference from the "far left spreading...". But my semantics are correct. This is simple tribalism hiding from facts... It doesn't even have anything to do with left versus right...

Agreed but the same tribalsm drives the far right in the same fashion. They are elected officials just like the pukes on the far right. 

[1984Echoes]

9 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Agreed but the same tribalism drives the far right in the same fashion. They are elected officials just like the pukes on the far right. 

I wouldn't call this the same fashion of tribalism though. Not at all.

The far right are fascists.

This kind of tribalism is more akin to the Russian invasion of Ukraine: I have a boatload of Russian friends here in Jersey. And a boatload of Ukrainian friends. Some who are even both Russian AND Ukrainian (ex-wife for starters).

The Russian contingent was wrapped up in their own world (listening to Russian radio and TV on cable, etc.; and therefore wrapped up in Putin's propaganda world...); when Russia invaded in 2014 all my Russian friends said to my Ukrainian friends "We're going to SAVE you from the EVIL WEST!!!"; and all my Ukrainian friends responded with "GET THE **** OUT OF OUR COUNTRY!!!". A lot of hurt feelings/ friendships since that time.

This isn't left or right, even if it is politicians also engaging, with most of them on the left. It's just not the same. It's a different kind of tribalism. I mean, how can you say "LEFT" when most Jewish-Americans (not all, by far) vote Democrat? It just doesn't make sense to say "It's the far left" when it's NOT.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by 1984Echoes

[Mr.TaterSalad]

18 hours ago, oblong said:

That’s where I am at. If tomorrow 3000 native Americans went into neighborhoods and started slaughtering white people would these lefties start saying “well you know we took their land and 500 years of oppression…”. Historical mistreatment is real and acknowledged but immediate slaughter and death is not justified. 

As a reformed libertarian and now member of the progressive left I certainly would not justify taking back land from people who occupy and live in America today to give it back to indigenous peoples. Nor would I advocate and support current violence because of past oppression. But I don't disagree that there is a segment, larger than one would like there to be, that would see it as "this is the price you pay for stealing their land, spreading small pox, and murdering them in the past.

One of the problems, regarding the whole "take their land" argument from the idigenous peoples of the past to the Israel/Palestine conflict of today is that people and government leaders in the west have not learned any of the important lessons from the past. The west largely turned a blind eye to Israeli settlement advancement and throwing Palestinian people off of their land and farms that they have lived and cultivated on for generations. There are international legal experts who believe these settlements do violate the 4th Geneva Conventions as well. So the "we took their land" part is something the west still hasn't learned from because we have allowed the Israelis' to take the land of Palestinian people for decades and have done nothing in response to it.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

I wouldn't call this the same fashion though.

The far right are fascists.

This kind of tribalism is more akin to the Russian invasion of Ukraine: I have a boatload of Russian friends here in Jersey. And a boatload of Ukrainian friends. Some who are even both Russian AND Ukrainian (ex-wife for starters).

The Russian contingent was wrapped up in their own world (listening to Russian radio and TV on cable, etc.; and therefore wrapped up in Putin's propaganda world...); when Russia invaded in 2014 all my Russian friends said to my Ukrainian friends "We're going to SAVE you from the EVIL WEST!!!"; and all my Ukrainian friends responded with "GET THE **** OUT OF OUR COUNTRY!!!". A lot of hurt feelings/ friendships since that time.

This isn't left or right, even if it is politicians also engaging, with most of them on the left. It's just not the same. It's a different kind of tribalism. I mean, how can you say "LEFT" when most Jewish-Americans (not all, by far) vote Democrat? It just doesn't make sense to say "It's the far left" when it's NOT.

Also, the leader of the far left in the Untied States, at least politically speaking, is a practicing Jew, whose family is Jewish and whose family survived the holocaust. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[1984Echoes]

3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

.... The west largely turned a blind eye to Israeli settlement advancement and throwing ...

A quick history lesson:

The Jews are all FROM ISRAEL. 

For thousands of years they ruled that land. They had the balls to fight the Roman Empire. They obviously lost. And the Romans kicked them out in the year 135.

As far as I am concerned, Jews returning to Israel are reclaiming the land that was stolen from them 1,800 years earlier, after they had held that land for generation after generation.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

4 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

No offense but I'll defer to what apartheid actually means. The fact that Arabs are given equal rights to vote, serve in public office, serve in the military and work/travel alongside the Jews negates this. I'm not saying Israel is perfect in anything just as there are no perfect people. However calling modern day Israel pro-apartheid is the grandaddy of all misnomers.

United Nations: International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid  

Going based off the United Nations own definition, Israel classifies as an apartheid state as they meet several of the criteria below. Furthermore, the UN itself, and experts whose whole lives are built around studying conflict between nations and peoples, at Amnesty International and Human Rights watch, have wrote publications (that I shared previously) classifying Israel as an apartheid state.

Quote

 

Article II  For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:  

(a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:  

(i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups;  

(ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;

(iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;  (b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;  

(c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;  

d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;  

(e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;  

(f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.  

 

 

[Jim Cowan]

Western leaders have always recognized the aggressive expansion of Israel for exactly what it was.  They just never dared to say so out of fear of offending wealthy political donors.

[Biff Mayhem]

16 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Going based off the United Nations own definition, Israel classifies as an apartheid state as they meet several of the criteria below.

 

Show me, with proof, the several. 

[Biff Mayhem]

17 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

As a reformed libertarian and now member of the progressive left I certainly would not justify taking back land from people who occupy and live in America today to give it back to indigenous peoples. Nor would I advocate and support current violence because of past oppression. But I don't disagree that there is a segment, larger than one would like there to be, that would see it as "this is the price you pay for stealing their land, spreading small pox, and murdering them in the past.

One of the problems, regarding the whole "take their land" argument from the idigenous peoples of the past to the Israel/Palestine conflict of today is that people and government leaders in the west have not learned any of the important lessons from the past. The west largely turned a blind eye to Israeli settlement advancement and throwing Palestinian people off of their land and farms that they have lived and cultivated on for generations. There are international legal experts who believe these settlements do violate the 4th Geneva Conventions as well. So the "we took their land" part is something the west still hasn't learned from because we have allowed the Israelis' to take the land of Palestinian people for decades and have done nothing in response to it.

Let's go back further. That land was historically Israel. Palestine was only established by the Roman empire after they removed the vast majority of the Jews. They named it Palestine after the Philistines, the ancient enemy of Israel, as an insult. There is no race of Palestinians. They are Arabs who lived in the area that was originally Israel.

While on the subject, every time there are peace negotiations, Israel offers land and they are always turned down. This war and all the wars since 1948, aren't about land: it's about eradicating a race off the face of the planet.

 

 

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Biff Mayhem said:

While on the subject, every time there are peace negotiations, Israel offers land and they are always turned down.

The single biggest tragedy was Arafat's refusal to take the deal at Camp David. The Palestinian leadership couldn't let go of their dream of reversing the UN mandate and here we are.

[Tigeraholic1]

13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

The single biggest tragedy was Arafat's refusal to take the deal at Camp David. The Palestinian leadership couldn't let go of their dream of reversing the UN mandate and here we are.

Yet we live in a era of revisionist history that folks like to ignore key factors.

[Tigeraholic1]

17 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

United Nations: International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid  

Going based off the United Nations own definition, Israel classifies as an apartheid state as they meet several of the criteria below. Furthermore, the UN itself, and experts whose whole lives are built around studying conflict between nations and peoples, at Amnesty International and Human Rights watch, have wrote publications (that I shared previously) classifying Israel as an apartheid state.

 

The same UN that allows Russia and China (permanent members) to do whatever they please.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

The same UN that allows Russia and China (permanent members) to do whatever they please.

It fallacious to say that. Just because the UN has its flaws doesn't render its report incorrect. And if you don't want to take the UN's word for it there are plenty of other non-UN affiliated reports you can read and reference here, here, here, and here.

[oblong]

Either way two things can be discussed independently.

What Hamas did last week was astrocious and horrible.  They started this mess.  Arabs/Muslims can cry all they want but when 2 days after these attacks they have rallies with dancing and singing.... not a good look.   At all.  Now you have all kinds of independent corrobaration on the hospital attack being self inflicted yet so many refuse to believe it and our own members of Congress continuing to propogate the lie.... honestly... shame on them.

Their refusal to condem the attacks without adding some kind of qualifier is a disgrace.  

 

 

 

 

[Tigeraholic1]

 

[RatkoVarda]

2 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Let's go back further. That land was historically Israel. Palestine was only established by the Roman empire after they removed the vast majority of the Jews. They named it Palestine after the Philistines, the ancient enemy of Israel, as an insult. There is no race of Palestinians. They are Arabs who lived in the area that was originally Israel.

While on the subject, every time there are peace negotiations, Israel offers land and they are always turned down. This war and all the wars since 1948, aren't about land: it's about eradicating a race off the face of the planet.

thank you for this.

eradicating Hamas (easier said than done) would be best for Israel, Palestinians, and the world. they don't want peace, and the only people Hamas has hurt more than Palestinians are Israelis.

[Crazy Cat Gentleman]

going to guess this alert is more relevant to this thread than to anything else, but 🤷

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/worldwide-caution.html

[Tigeraholic1]

Bibi on the front line addressing troops today. We are very close to boots on the ground. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

The forensic architecture X account has a long, interesting, insightful thread with their analysis on the strike on hospital.

[1776]

https://www.wsj.com/video/video-analysis-shows-gaza-hospital-hit-by-failed-rocket-meant-for-israel/120A1C22-BA32-418E-8837-BC4141FEFB00.html?mod=mhp

Hamas is guilty of the hospital deaths and injuries. Hamas lies. Sad, but the media, for the most part, is willing to parrot what an avowed terrorist organization says. 
 

Edited October 22, 2023 by 1776