smr-nj Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Yes. It’s also believable that Hamas could have had the hospital compound serving as a storage area for their weaponry, with the Palestinians serving as human shields… and Israel could have chosen to bomb it. Period. What a positively horrendous situation. It’s all horrifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Jordan has canceled a summit it was to host in Amman on Wednesday with US President Joe Biden and the Egyptian and Palestinian leaders to discuss the situation in Gaza, the country's foreign minister, Ayman Safadi, said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 What an ugly, barbaric situation this entire war has turned into. Reports of over 500 dead with the bombing/explosion at the hospital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 38 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: Israel has never worried too much about its moral standing. It hasn't ever been forced to. Yes, the western world has largely given Israel a pass for 20 years of apartheid in Palestine and for continued settlements that encroach on and force out Palestinians. I don't know that Israel has had to face real, serious blowback from the western nations. Sure, they have been individually criticized for their actions and Bibi himself has especially been critiqued. But has there ever been a firm condemnation towards apartheid and violence by Israel towards Palestinian? Criticisms often seem so one-sided, leveled mainly at Palestine and Hamas. As well Hamas should be roundly rebuked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 3 hours ago, oblong said: I don't know where this is being discussed but today I see an airstrike on a hospital in Gaza and seeing multiple tweets saying it's Israel's bomb and others saying it's from Hamas... misinformation is king now and we've reached the consequences of a post Jan 6 fake news world. Nobody will believe anything that isn't on "their side" and no matter what footage or statements show minds will not be changed. Such a dangerious time now. I have no idea what the truth is because I can't study and research... twitter used to be of some use but now it's not reliable. Everyone is stuck in their bubbles. Not both sidesing this at all because it really is confusing to me. The extremes on both sides have it in for Israel, for different reasons I guess, and the middle who support Israel, as I tend to do, are probably guilty of the same. If Hamas did it, then it's business as usual for them. If Israel did it then they need to be more careful and just take the L if if the alternative means more civilian casualties. There's supposed to be rules of war. You can't take down an entire region, just like we couldn't and shouldn't have after 9/11, even though at the time I suggested just nuking the whole middle east and starting over. Emotions run high but cooler heads are required by those with actual decision making power. I've been follow Mehdi Hassan, of MSNBC and Al-Jazeera, quite often since this violence started. Mehdi is definitely biased, to a point, towards the Palestinian cause, but is still sharing reliable information I feel. He reshared this video that showcases the moments before the blast at the hospital occurred. I am no weapons expert by any means, but hearing that whizzing sound through the air and then seeing an explosion sounds like something might have been fired at the hospital. Horrific either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIguy Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Israel says they've turned over data to the USA proving it was a rocket fired by Islamic Jihad that hit the hospital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 The IDF confirmed late Tuesday night that a Palestinian Islamic Jihad failed rocket attack damaged a Gaza hospital, leading to a still unclear number of deaths. The army spokesperson gave a press conference declaring that "an analysis of IDF operational systems indicates a barrage of rockets was fired by terrorists in Gaza, passing in close proximity, to the hospital at the time it was hit. Intelligence from a few sources that we have in our hands indicates that the Islamic Jihad is responsible." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) Only one side barbarically attacked civilians starting this war. Edited October 17, 2023 by Tigeraholic1 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 24 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Only one side barbarically attacked civilians starting this war. That’s where I am at. If tomorrow 3000 native Americans went into neighborhoods and started slaughtering white people would these lefties start saying “well you know we took their land and 500 years of oppression…”. Historical mistreatment is real and acknowledged but immediate slaughter and death is not justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-hamas-attack-kibbutz-survived-4057fb1f compelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIguy Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 12 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: What an ugly, barbaric situation this entire war has turned into. Reports of over 500 dead with the bombing/explosion at the hospital. Why on earth would you believe a report put out by Hamas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Mayhem Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 13 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Yes, the western world has largely given Israel a pass for 20 years of apartheid Patently false. One in 5 people in Israel are Arab. They serve in high places in government and military. The population of Gaza has grown exponentially in the last twenty years. Sounds like if the Israelis practice apartheid, they're really bad at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 The international community "must protect innocent civilians and punish Hamas," Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto said on Wednesday, commenting on the Gaza hospital strike in which hundreds of people died. -Finally, a statement from a politico that isn’t garbled mush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 The last 24 hours on this story is a good reminder that maybe we should wait for some actual corroboration before jumping to conclusions or taking Hamas at their word. Is that too much to ask for? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said: Patently false. One in 5 people in Israel are Arab. They serve in high places in government and military. The population of Gaza has grown exponentially in the last twenty years. Sounds like if the Israelis practice apartheid, they're really bad at it. Well no offense, but I'll trust the reports of people who study and examine this conflict in great detail like Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the UN. Amnesty International: Israel's Apartheid Against the Palestinians: A Decades Look Into Oppression and Domination Human Rights Watch: A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution Human Rights Watch: Gaza: Israel’s ‘Open-Air Prison’ at 15. Israel, Egypt Movement Restrictions Wreak Havoc on Palestinian Lives United Nations Research: Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in OPT: Israel Has Imposed Upon Palestine an Apartheid Reality in a Post-apartheid World Associated Press Report: A former Mossad chief says Israel is enforcing an apartheid system in the West Bank Israel is South Africa of the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. They are an apartheid state and just because we claim to have a special relationship with them or give them special privilege doesn't make it not so. Also, just because Hamas is brutal and barbaric unlike Nelson Mandela and the people he led, doesn't make it not so. Edited October 18, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Mayhem Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 15 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Well no offense, but I'll trust the reports of people who study and examine this conflict in great detail like Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the UN. Amnesty International: Israel's Apartheid Against the Palestinians: A Decades Look Into Oppression and Domination Human Rights Watch: A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution Human Rights Watch: Gaza: Israel’s ‘Open-Air Prison’ at 15. Israel, Egypt Movement Restrictions Wreak Havoc on Palestinian Lives United Nations Research: Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in OPT: Israel Has Imposed Upon Palestine an Apartheid Reality in a Post-apartheid World Associated Press Report: A former Mossad chief says Israel is enforcing an apartheid system in the West Bank Israel is South Africa of the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. They are an apartheid state and just because we claim to have a special relationship with them or give them special privilege doesn't make it not so. Also, just because Hamas is brutal and barbaric unlike Nelson Mandela and the people he led, doesn't make it not so. No offense but I'll defer to what apartheid actually means. The fact that Arabs are given equal rights to vote, serve in public office, serve in the military and work/travel alongside the Jews negates this. I'm not saying Israel is perfect in anything just as there are no perfect people. However calling modern day Israel pro-apartheid is the grandaddy of all misnomers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) I don't in any way, shape or form condone what Hamas did on the bloody, awful Saturday. I believe it was a brutal, barbaric act of terrorism against innocent civilians and the state of Israel. I also believe that Hamas, the Isliam Jihad, Hezbollah, ISIS, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, the state of Iran, and a host of other terrorist organizations and networks across the region are so brainwashed, and have become so barbaric in nature as a result, that they will not stop until the State of Israel and the Jewish people are gone. I believe religious fundamentalism in some sects of the Muslim religious community and the anti-Semitism that comes along with it are significant problems that must be addressed in order for true, lasting peace to ever be achieved. All of that said, there is a very scary and dangerous conflation that Hamas = Palestinian people. No, Hamas = Hamas, an independent terror organization that happened to take power "democratically" (I saw that very loosely) in an area of hopelessness and despair. They did so threw their own intimidation tactics and forms of election interference. But we cannot conflate Hamas with the everyday Palestinian person living in Gaza and I see far too much of that going on. We as Americans, people of the west, and most of all Israelis' and their government can and should thoroughly condemn and act against Hamas. We should all collectively do so without launching a full scale, land invasion of the Gaza strip that will kills tens-of-thousands, if not more. We should all act collectively without cutting off all electricity, fresh water, food, medical aid and more. For the past 30-40-50 years the west should have been condemning the continued settlement expansion by Israel. We should have also been assuring Israel to give back land to the Palestinian people and better assimilate Palestinians into their law, culture, employment marketplace, government, and everyday life for those that live in Israeli territory. We should have more forcefully condemned and pushed back on the oppressive nature of Israel on both Gaza and the West Bank. We should have been swift in our condemnation, with action to back it up, against cutting off fresh water to 90% of people in Gaza, against the restriction of movement through the region, against cutting off land and sea borders, and most of all against the settlements that encroached further in on Palestinian land and the homes and businesses of human beings. I don't know about you, but if someone rolled up a military vehicle on my street from Canada and told me I have 72 hours to vacate my home because it is now their land or said the same thing to my mother or my aunts and uncles or friends, I'd be pretty damn scared and pretty damn pissed off about the whole situation. If they continued doing that over a 40-50-60 year period, I'd come to develop a real negative opinion of the Canadian government and its people. Why should Palestinians feel any different from how you or I would feel if Canada came down from the north and did it to us? What's mine is mine and what's yours and has been for generations, is now mine as well. I certainly would want the Canadian government rebuked in the strongest way possible, without violence. Edited October 18, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 29 minutes ago, mtutiger said: The last 24 hours on this story is a good reminder that maybe we should wait for some actual corroboration before jumping to conclusions or taking Hamas at their word. Is that too much to ask for? The mayor of my city put out a long diatribe about this. He used to be a member of the state house. He called out our state leaders yesterday for their silence over the Israeli bombing of the hospital. I so want to ask him if perhaps it was because they waited for further information? It's rich to call out others for not speaking up on something that you got wrong. I won't do it because my so works for the city and I don't want to mess anything up for him. People will just believe what they want now. Facts do not matter. There's a significant portion of our population that will go on thinking an Israeli bomb did this and there's no going back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 I don't yet know if I believe Israel was involved or not in the bombing of the hospital. I did initially feel they were yesterday, but am more uncertain now. But either way, Israel has itself a credibility problem, the same as Islamic Jihad, the alleged organization from which the rocket came from does. Netanyahu is the Donald Trump of Israel. If the Trump Administration was alleged to have done something like bombing or rocketing a hospital, would we give them any deference or believe a single word that comes out of their administrations mouths? Probably not. So why are we giving Bibi's Administration any deference or right of belief. Maybe I am incorrectly conflating the Israeli Defense Forces too much with the corruption and mistrust of Bibi and the people he has surrounded himself with. But I have a hard time taking reports that come out of the Netanyahu government very seriously and have a hard time giving them credulity right off the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 This makes sense to me... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 40 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: This makes sense to me... It's a done deal at this point. Hamas did it. They bombed their own hospital (accidentally, through a missile failure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 The U.S. has collected “high confidence” signals intelligence showing that the explosion at a Gaza hospital compound on Tuesday was caused by the militant group Palestinian Islamic Jihad, U.S. officials said, buttressing Israel’s contention that it wasn’t responsible for the blast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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