The Gaza War

[oblong]

45 minutes ago, pfife said:

Like when I watch that video and see them chanting "shame" - I don't think they're chanting shame that he's Jewish, it's shame that apparently inherent in his Jewishness is that he supports Israel killing Palestinians.

That's obviously really not a good or appropriate generalization to make regarding Jewish people (Trump does it all the time), but I think the distinction is important.

I think it’s a distinction of degree, not principle.  It’s Shaming a person because they biologically or religiously share a trait with others who are doing what you think are bad things.  How is that different than right wing nutjobs targeting Muslims/Arabs after 9/11?  

[pfife]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

I think it’s a distinction of degree, not principle.  It’s Shaming a person because they biologically or religiously share a trait with others who are doing what you think are bad things.  How is that different than right wing nutjobs targeting Muslims/Arabs after 9/11?  

It seems we're in agreement that there's a component of this is that is actions-related - you mentioned doing bad things and 9/11 - not necessarily 100% based on religion/ethnicity.

I would contend that if there's no war going on (killing), there's no (or maybe way less?) shaming going on as portrayed in the video.   If that shaming was going on pre-war, then we have a lot of people here who ignored it pre-war and are now castigating those they allege are currently ignoring what they themselves blissfully ignored until a few days ago.

 

[ben9753]

53 minutes ago, pfife said:

Like when I watch that video and see them chanting "shame" - I don't think they're chanting shame that he's Jewish, it's shame that apparently inherent in his Jewishness is that he supports Israel killing Palestinians.

That's obviously really not a good or appropriate generalization to make regarding Jewish people (Trump does it all the time), but I think the distinction is important.

Why is the distinction important? If a racist claims he only hates black people because they have a higher crime rate, not because of his inherent blackness, no one would claim that it's a valid or important distinction. Anti semites always are looking for ways to sanitize their hate, they love these nuanced takes on why they hate, just like racists do and we would never take that from them.

[pfife]

1 minute ago, ben9753 said:

Why is the distinction important? If a racist claims he only hates black people because they have a higher crime rate, not because of his inherent blackness, no one would claim that it's a valid or important distinction. Anti semites always are looking for ways to sanitize their hate, they love these nuanced takes on why they hate, just like racists do and we would never take that from them.

I think it's important b/c I contend that the shaming wouldn't be happening to nearly the extent it is right now if it weren't for the killing associated with the war.  

[ben9753]

And the Japanese would not have been put in camps if not for the attack on Pearl Harbor. No one uses that as an out for the obvious racism of the policy.

[oblong]

3 minutes ago, pfife said:

It seems we're in agreement that there's a component of this is that is actions-related - you mentioned doing bad things and 9/11 - not necessarily 100% based on religion/ethnicity.

I would contend that if there's no war going on (killing), there's no (or maybe way less?) shaming going on as portrayed in the video.   If that shaming was going on pre-war, then we have a lot of people here who ignored it pre-war and are now castigating those they allege are currently ignoring what they themselves blissfully ignored until a few days ago.

 

Who cares?  In both situations they are being targeted for being Jewish and that is all that matters. Full stop.  motivation for being a jerk is an attempt to excuse it or deliver a cop out.  Rednecks hate Jews because they are led to believe they do and did and believe crazy things. (Running the world, eating babies, hoarding money, etc)  Those too are “actions”. 

[pfife]

12 minutes ago, oblong said:

I think it’s a distinction of degree, not principle.  It’s Shaming a person because they biologically or religiously share a trait with others who are doing what you think are bad things.  How is that different than right wing nutjobs targeting Muslims/Arabs after 9/11?  

This is an interesting comparison.     I don't want to get pedantic and clearly it depends on what constitutes targeting, but I remember dozens of discussions on this forum at that time where people that posted here targeted Muslims/Arabs after 9/11 and I don't think they were necessarily rw nutjobs.   The Ground Zero mosque fights we had in this forum come to mind instantly.

[pfife]

6 minutes ago, oblong said:

Who cares?  In both situations they are being targeted for being Jewish and that is all that matters. Full stop.  motivation for being a jerk is an attempt to excuse it or deliver a cop out.  Rednecks hate Jews because they are led to believe they do and did and believe crazy things. (Running the world, eating babies, hoarding money, etc)  Those too are “actions”. 

I'll let you be on your own with that comparison.  

But to your initial question, I care.

ETA - I think there's a misunderstanding - you said in both situations they are being targeted and actually on one of my situations there as a very huge decreasing in the targeting so it's not true that in both circumstances there's equal prevalence of targeting.

And again, if pre-war and post war had equal target prevalence,  why was did literally everyone here ignore it per-war?

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[pfife]

38 minutes ago, ben9753 said:

And the Japanese would not have been put in camps if not for the attack on Pearl Harbor. No one uses that as an out for the obvious racism of the policy.

No one is using anything as an out for racism

Furthermore, no one would examine the events of Japanese internment not caring about Pearl Harbor.

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[Tigeraholic1]

So lemme get this straight. It is ok to confront a person and prevent them from moving freely because there race or religon is doing something you don't agree with as long as you are JUST shaming them? LOL wild.

[pfife]

2 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

So lemme get this straight. It is ok to confront a person and prevent them from moving freely because there race or religon is doing something you don't agree with as long as you are JUST shaming them? LOL wild.

LOL wild interpretation, have fun with that **** hoss

[Tigeraholic1]

3 minutes ago, pfife said:

LOL wild interpretation, have fun with that **** hoss

1 hour ago, pfife said:

Like when I watch that video and see them chanting "shame" - I don't think they're chanting shame that he's Jewish, it's shame that apparently inherent in his Jewishness is that he supports Israel killing Palestinians.

👀

[1984Echoes]

6 minutes ago, pfife said:

LOL wild interpretation, have fun with that **** hoss

Dude...

You're the one trying to wriggle out of calling antisemitism antisemitism by splitting hairs/ reaching for justifications to do so.

[pfife]

12 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

👀

Quite clear you misrepresented what I said.   

Also sweet snip

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[pfife]

9 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Dude...

You're the one trying to wriggle out of calling antisemitism antisemitism by splitting hairs/ reaching for justifications to do so.

I think that confrontation in that video happened b/c of the war.   As I've stated several times now, that type of confrontation wasn't happening before the war, and there are plethora of news articles explicitly saying that.     If they were happening before the war, everyone here ignored it. 

I never said what happened in the video was OK like Holic attributed to me.   To claim I did is pretty dishonest.  If you cosign that, you're being dishonest too, above and beyond the bolded inference of my intentions.

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[pfife]

23 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

So lemme get this straight. It is ok to confront a person and prevent them from moving freely because there race or religon is doing something you don't agree with as long as you are JUST shaming them? LOL wild.

Simple question:  where did I say what happened in the video is ok?  Quote me and bold the money quote.

[smr-nj]

26 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

So lemme get this straight. It is ok to confront a person and prevent them from moving freely because there race or religon is doing something you don't agree with as long as you are JUST shaming them? LOL wild.

Not in my mind.  Those who were impeding those people from getting to where they were headed deserve to be arrested, and (if it were MY decision) expelled if they were students.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Chuck, I found this article interesting talking about the blowback Fetterman has had after a statement in which he said Israel has the right to remove Hamas.  They cite some polls that were interesting as well which was interesting.  

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/sen-john-fetterman-faces-left-wing-backlash-israel-rcna122204

 

Please help me understand which part of the article stipulates that the blowback Fetterman faced from leftists was motivated by antisemitism, because I can't locate that idea within it.

[Tigeraholic1]

3 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

Not in my mind.  Those who were impeding those people from getting to where they were headed deserve to be arrested, and (if it were MY decision) expelled if they were students.

Most free thinking americans feel this way. 

[pfife]

Weird, not only does that NBC article not say it's antisemitism, it says it's the f'ing war. 

Which someone here's been arguing.   

Quote

The episode offers a window into a rift developing on the progressive left over the latest intensification of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 

NBC should stop trying to wiggle out of calling antisemitism antisemtism, and Esweig should be mocked for posting an article that says this

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[pfife]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Most free thinking americans feel this way. 

hi where did I say what happened in the video was OK?

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

I think some people are aghast or offended at the suggestion that there might be crazy/hateful people that otherwise generally align with them politically, even if further to the extreme.  Left/Right is a very broad box obviously.  But it cannot be denied that there's antisemetic feelings among the extremes of both wings.  Different reasons and motivations but hate is hate.

It doesn't mean that if a person leans left or considers themself a lefty that they are being charged as antisemtic.  

Denial of antisemitic feelings among people on the left is a pretty high bar, since it only takes finding it within a single person on the left to prove there is. I'm just asking for any credible specific example of who on the left acts out of a motivation of hatred of Jews. This is not me daring you to find one because I know there isn't one, or anything even close to that. This is me asking because I simply can't retrieve one from either the my memory bank or the Internet hole. As others have suggested, the Harvard example in the TwiX appeared to be an assumption that the "mob" must be leftist because it took place at Harvard.

[oblong]

I don’t understand why that is supposed to matter?  The guy who killed the Palestinian boy in Illinois wasn’t killing any Palestinians before that but I dont think that’s relevant to the charge of calling him a racist. 

25 minutes ago, pfife said:

I think that confrontation in that video happened b/c of the war.   As I've stated several times now, that type of confrontation wasn't happening before the war, and there are plethora of news articles explicitly saying that.     If they were happening before the war, everyone here ignored it. 

 

[pfife]

6 minutes ago, oblong said:

I don’t understand why that is supposed to matter?  The guy who killed the Palestinian boy wasn’t killing any Palestinians before that but I dont think that’s relevant to the charge of calling him a racist. 

 

I think it's super important to know why these confrontations such as the one in the video happen.   And I think the war is a huge part of it why it happened.  So does NBC and PBS Newshour which spent resources reporting on such so their pocketbook says it's important and given they work on ratings free market etc

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[oblong]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Denial of antisemitic feelings among people on the left is a pretty high bar, since it only takes finding it within a single person on the left to prove there is. I'm just asking for any credible specific example of who on the left acts out of a motivation of hatred of Jews. This is not me daring you to find one because I know there isn't one, or anything even close to that. This is me asking because I simply can't retrieve one from either the my memory bank or the Internet hole. As others have suggested, the Harvard example in the TwiX appeared to be an assumption that the "mob" must be leftist because it took place at Harvard.

“Hatred of Jews” is not the single definition of antisemitism