The Gaza War

[chasfh]

57 minutes ago, oblong said:

I think it’s a distinction of degree, not principle.  It’s Shaming a person because they biologically or religiously share a trait with others who are doing what you think are bad things.  How is that different than right wing nutjobs targeting Muslims/Arabs after 9/11?  

If you mean the Harvard example, I don't view the "mob" (not sure what else to call them given precedent) to be confronting the pro-Israeli group because they're Jewish. I view them to be confronting the pro-Israeli group because they are actively marching in support of Israel's current military policy in Gaza. Presumably, the "mob" sees pro-Israel demonstrations not as a mere affirmation of Jewish pride, but as a sanctioning of the mortal threat to their countrymen still stuck in Gaza.

Now, were the same "mob" to go through one of the Harvard libraries confronting Jewish kids who are just sitting there studying and doing nothing else, then I would definitely see your point about traits.

[pfife]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

If you mean the Harvard example, I don't view the "mob" (not sure what else to call them given precedent) to be confronting the pro-Israeli group because they're Jewish. I view them to be confronting the pro-Israeli group because they are actively marching in support of Israel's current military policy in Gaza. Presumably, the "mob" sees pro-Israel demonstrations not as a mere affirmation of Jewish pride, but as a sanctioning of the mortal threat to their countrymen still stuck in Gaza.

Now, were the same "mob" to go through one of the Harvard libraries confronting Jewish kids who are just sitting there studying and doing nothing else, then I would definitely see your point about traits.

The guy that was surrounded in the video was a protester?  I thought he was just going about his regular daily business.  

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, oblong said:

“Hatred of Jews” is not the single definition of antisemitism 

That seems like a reasonable statement, but what are the definitions of antisemitism that do not entail hatred of Jews? Would, for instance, disagreeing with the policies of the state of Israel attended to their military actions toward Gaza be considered antisemitic?

[pfife]

27 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Most free thinking americans feel this way. 

I know I do!  Which reminds me, where did I say what happened in the video was OK?  

[pfife]

I can't find any more reporting or news on that Harvard incident.  In true X fashion the guy that shared the video who's X was posted here won't verify that it's real.

 

[pfife]

1 hour ago, ben9753 said:

And the Japanese would not have been put in camps if not for the attack on Pearl Harbor. No one uses that as an out for the obvious racism of the policy.

To tie this to the conversation actually happening in the thread, no one would examine the American internment of Japanese not caring about Pearl Harbor or WW2 which is what you're demanding of others with respect to the events in the video.  

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[pfife]

So to recap:

1) We don't actually know if the video is real- poster of video has very conspicuously not confirmed it's authenticity as of yet.   No other reporting of the situation found. 

2) We don't actually know the political leanings of the perps in the video,  so far it has been inferred by posters here and the only criteria given thus far is the skinny pants and boots they're wearing.

3) We don't know if the victim was a student or a protestor (video caption suggests he's a student, Chas mentioned he's a protestor)

4) Because we don't know if he was a protestor or not, we don't know why he was surrounded - folks here have claimed it's because he's Jewish, but if he was a protestor that's a whole different story than what's being told here.

5) Many news sites have reported increases in these types of events since the war began but "who cares" whether the war had anything to do with it, just like "who cares" whether Pearl Harbor had anything to do with Japanese Internment Camps.  

6) Holic lied about what pfife said and doesn't have the stones, skinny pants, or patent leather boots to admit it.   We'll keep trying there lil guy

[chasfh]

I have to admit that I mis-saw the video as a group of Palestinian protesters confronting a pro-Israeli group, but now it is clear to me that it is a mob of people surrounding a single guy. My apologies for that confusion. What we still don't know is what instigated the confrontation, since we see it in full flower as the video starts, and it appears there may be some question as to whether it takes place at Harvard at all. My point that we still don't know that the mob of people are of the left who are animated by antisemitism as part of their being still stands, although if they do consider themselves on the left and they hate Jews, I'd be interested in what else it is they believe and don't believe as part of their ideology?

[pfife]

In light of Chas's post, new recap:

1) We don't actually know if the video is real- poster of video has very conspicuously not confirmed it's authenticity as of yet.   No other reporting of the situation found. 

2) We don't actually know the political leanings of the perps in the video,  so far it has been inferred by posters here and the only criteria given thus far is the skinny pants and boots they're wearing.

3) We don't know why the individual was targeted, so far it has been noted by the caption on the video and in the tweet accompanying the video. (Note, the tweet is written by an individual who has not confirmed the veracity of the video he posted on X)  and posters here have inferred it's because he was Jewish.

5) Many news sites have reported increases in these types of events since the war began but "who cares" whether the war had anything to do with it, just like "who cares" whether Pearl Harbor had anything to do with Japanese Internment Camps.  

6) Holic lied about what pfife said and doesn't have the stones, skinny pants, or patent leather boots to admit it.   We'll keep trying there lil guy

[Tigeraholic1]

I really don’t want to get into a pissing match about something YOU said and multiple posters pointed to your wild take. I could really care less if the video is real or produced at Area 51. The scenario that transpired is wrong on any angle you spin it. 

the skinny pants and boots comment was suppose to be funny. But not nearly as funny as yours on a scenario we’re an actual person was killed allegedly from a hate crime. 

On 10/31/2023 at 6:56 AM, pfife said:

So society has to endure all of the ills that come with everyone being armed, so that good guys can stop bad guys.   Then when they get that rare chance to stop the bad guy with a gun, they defecate the sleeping facilities.  

This sucks bad.

[pfife]

4 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I really don’t want to get into a pissing match about something YOU said and multiple posters pointed to your wild take. I could really care less if the video is real or produced at Area 51. The scenario that transpired is wrong on any angle you spin it. 

the skinny pants and boots comment was suppose to be funny. But not nearly as funny as yours on a scenario we’re an actual person was killed allegedly from a hate crime. 

Hi where did I say what happened in the video was ok?

[pfife]

@Tigeraholic1 I just reread that post of mine you quoted and it's still really good thanks for resurfacing it. It's hard to believe that a bunch of good guys with guns chose not to stop a bad guy  and made all sorts of excuses why they didn't meanwhile the rest of us endure all the trash that comes with them yearning the opportunity to cosplay hero and they choked hard.   Lmao hilarious this gets all in your fee fees

Don't let facts get in the way of your preferred social policy.  

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, pfife said:

I think that confrontation in that video happened b/c of the war....

It doesn't matter WHY that happened.

Surrounding, heckling, intimidating, impeding a Jewish person... BECAUSE of the war, does not change antisemitism into NOT.

Similar to America creating casualties in Afghanistan while they went after Bin Laden. There were Anti-American demonstrations all over the world due to the casualties/ deaths caused by that war. Are you sayin that they were NOT anti-American demonstrations... because it was simply due to the war?

That doesn't make sense.

Antisemitism is antisemitism, REGARDLESS whether the reason or cause is pure hatred of Jews, sectarianism, war, whatever... Antisemitism is still antisemitism.

[pfife]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

It doesn't matter WHY that happened.

Yes it does.

Besides, if you really believed that, you wouldn't be here arguing it happened because of aniti-semitism because why it happened doesn't matter.   If you really believed it didn't matter why it happened, you'd be attacking other people's explanations for why it happened as well,

but you're not.  You're literally saying why it happened doesn't matter and then ranting about why it happened... in the very same post.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[Tigeraholic1]

My fee fees are golden. I am sorry I put the words you said in your mouth. I admit defeat.

[pfife]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

My fee fees are golden. I am sorry I put the words you said in your mouth. I admit defeat.

Thank you.  

Now, you mentioned people who agreed with your admittedly incorrect interpretation..........

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, pfife said:

I think it's super important to know why these confrontations such as the one in the video happen.   And I think the war is a huge part of it why it happened....

I do agree with this part...

It IS important to know why those expressing hatred are acting out as such.

War is a causation that can be fixed: with no war.

Pure hatred out of unreasonableness is less preventable or fixable.

But back to the war side of it...

The U.S. is not going to refrain from war against Japan after Pearl Harbor because of anti-war or anti-American  demonstrations. The U.S. is not going to refrain from tracking down criminal mastermind Osama Bin Laden because there will be casualties in Afghanistan, and the subsequent anti-American demonstrations and hatred...

Israel has the same right to defend it's citizens against these terrorists.

Even though it will cause countless deaths in Gaza, and the subsequent anti-Israel/Jewish/ antisemitic/ antiwar demonstrations. A little of each.

[1984Echoes]

7 minutes ago, pfife said:

... you wouldn't be here arguing it happened because of anti-semitism because why it happened doesn't matter.   If you really believed it didn't matter why it happened, you'd be attacking other people's explanations for why it happened as well,

but you're not.  You're literally saying why it happened doesn't matter and then ranting about why it happened... in the very same post.

My point is that it doesn't take anything to display antisemitism.

Any excuse will do. 

Is there any antisemitism without a war?

Why yes, yes there is.

In America, Jews are roughly 2.4% of the population. But are the target of roughly 60% of hate crimes. Before the war. Without a war.

Hate crimes exploded against Asian-Americans after Trump said "China Flu".

People are predisposed towards hatred and will use any excuse to display it.

[pfife]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

I do agree with this part...

It IS important to know why those expressing hatred are acting out as such.

War is a causation that can be fixed: with no war.

Pure hatred out of unreasonableness is less preventable or fixable.

But back to the war side of it...

The U.S. is not going to refrain from war against Japan after Pearl Harbor because of anti-war or anti-American  demonstrations. The U.S. is not going to refrain from tracking down criminal mastermind Osama Bin Laden because there will be casualties in Afghanistan, and the subsequent anti-American demonstrations and hatred...

Israel has the same right to defend it's citizens against these terrorists.

Even though it will cause countless deaths in Gaza, and the subsequent anti-Israel/Jewish/ antisemitic/ antiwar demonstrations. A little of each.

so which is it?  Does it matter why these expressions of hatred (your words) are happenings, or does it not?  Because in 2 posts you argued two opposite things.  This is a direct quote where you said it didn't matter

Quote

It doesn't matter WHY that happened.

This that you said on is important:

Quote

War is a causation that can be fixed: with no war.

Pure hatred out of unreasonableness is less preventable or fixable.

That's why it's really important to make the distinction.   And important to know if the offenders are acting out of war or pure hatred (or a mixture of both).   Because what to do about it to stop it could differ depending on the answer.

I think it could go even deeper than that.   What if you live in the US but lets say your grandparents live in Gaza.  If you hate Israel b/c they're bombing where your grandparents live, is that different than hating Israel b/c they're Jewish?   I think it's hugely different and has hugely different proscriptive implications.

[pfife]

7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

My point is that it doesn't take anything to display antisemitism.

Any excuse will do. 

Is there any antisemitism without a war?

Why yes, yes there is.

In America, Jews are roughly 2.4% of the population. But are the target of roughly 60% of hate crimes. Before the war. Without a war.

Hate crimes exploded against Asian-Americans after Trump said "China Flu".

People are predisposed towards hatred and will use any excuse to display it.

People here in the last few days have been castigating folks for ignoring these events... folks are looking the other way at anti-semitism.  Given  you seem to be suggesting these events were happening before the war as indicated in the bold, but those same people currently castigating were ignoring those events at that time... or at least not posting here about it.  

What's the difference?

While it doesn't take anything to display antisemitism, as you mention, it also doesn't take much to accuse folks of it when it very well may not be that. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[pfife]

I sat and watched a bunch of boomers accuse Ilhan Omar of being anti-semitic for saying "all about the benjamins".   Anyone who's heard a rap song from 2000 forward knows what she meant.  Easy to accuse

 

[pfife]

Regarding Rashida Tlaib:

I don't have the slightest idea whether she is antisemitic, in her heart.   What I mean by that is that I don't know whether she hates Jewish people b/c they're Jewish (I get that isn't the universe of antisemitism but what I'm going with).   I give her the benefit of the doubt on it.     What I do think is she has generations of her family in the West Bank and it's probably unrealistic to expect someone who's family has been at war with Israel for a long time to not hate Israel.  

As 84 posted, in a war, countries/peoples have the right to defend themselves and there will be innocent casualties because of that right.   So if innocent casualties are "acceptable" (for lack of better words) under actions of war, hating your enemy in that war is far less troubling, is it not?   Isn't that almost a basic prereq for going to war?

84, please correct me if I put words into your mouth you don't want, definitely not my intention.

Edited November 1, 2023 by pfife

[oblong]

1 hour ago, pfife said:

 

I think it could go even deeper than that.   What if you live in the US but lets say your grandparents live in Gaza.  If you hate Israel b/c they're bombing where your grandparents live, is that different than hating Israel b/c they're Jewish?   I think it's hugely different and has hugely different proscriptive implications.

You are leaving out the biggest reality.  Ignoring Hamas and pretending they are not doing anything to inflame the situation and have no responsibility for provoking israel into their response.  There was a cease fire on Oct 6. Arabs broke it. Savagely.  Yet it’s rare to see that acknowledged by people who go after Israel for their response… hence the charges of antisemitism.  And harassing and targeting Jews that are not in Israel is wrong and antisemitic regardless of what beef the persons grandparents had. 
 
there’s been a wave of this ever since Oct 7.  
 

here’s a Twitter account that tracks down these people and properly shames them. It’s satisfying seeing people get fired for their hate. 
 

 

[pfife]

I don't think that part was left out, it's mutually agreed upon by all posters involved in this discussion.

[Edman85]

This was in the NYT Morning newsletter the other day. FWIW.