1984Echoes Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 1 hour ago, buddha said: ... they have to get another center/playmaker... I was arguing this most of the year... especially as Copp and Compher proved neither were at a high enough level... 51 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: ... Petry and Matta have 1 year left, Chiarot and Holl have two. These contracts aren't going to horribly difficult to offload... Which is what my argument was. Dump these types of salaries... And I would rather spend (1) contract on an upper echelon player at $8 mill +/-, rather than two contracts on middling players like these. So I see our offseason needs as 5-fold (players only needs that is...): Extend Seider and Raymond. Let UFA's walk (and possibly an RFA or two) unless there's a compelling reason to keep them. Drop additional veteran salaries wherever that is possible, as Shinzaki noted a few very eligible candidates above... Sign 1 or 2 "PREMIUM" FA's, two-way players that are not on their last legs and can fit as a top-6 (borderline top-3) forward, with Center/Playmaker an especially acute need, or as a top 2-pairing defenseman. And fill in with kids. I want the youth to lower salaries and for them to start on their NHL learning curves (now, rather than later). I'm ready for Cossa, Mazur, Kasper, Wallinder, Toumisto, and possibly Johansson to start getting NHL ice time, as much as is possible... because they are going to have to go through learning curves... That also means there are a lot of movable vets on the Wings roster (UFA's RFA's, or trades), IMO. And higher level FA's which means more AAV and fewer players, as opposed to quantity of middling salaries/middling players. Too many middling salaries/ middling players can both kill a team's cap as well as kill a team's growth potential/ upside... as others have pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: I sort of go back to Buddha's point about not wasting money on mid level guys. Swing for the fences with one signing of a guy young enough to be here for a while and good enough to make a difference and promote guys to fill in the rest. If you lose a little more for one season so be it. The shorter version of what I just said. I approve this message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothfacekilla Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 Who is this young-ish top free agent available to even swing for the fences on? It a good idea in theory but I'm not really seeing any potential UFA that really fits the bill unless you consider 28/29 in that category of youngish, and then really all you've got is Guentzel and Reinhart. Anthony Duclair? Teuvo Teräväinen? These are all wingers too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 (edited) 30 minutes ago, slothfacekilla said: Who is this young-ish top free agent available to even swing for the fences on? It a good idea in theory but I'm not really seeing any potential UFA that really fits the bill unless you consider 28/29 in that category of youngish, and then really all you've got is Guentzel and Reinhart. Anthony Duclair? Teuvo Teräväinen? These are all wingers too. exactly - Yzerman talks about the guys you'd like to get never being available. But that still argues that maybe you don't spend the cap just to spend it unless you can keep things to one year so that if somebody you want does become available next year you have the option to move. Rienhart would be interesting - He not playing center but he is listed as one. Better wing than center or Panthers just short of RH sticks? Edited April 17 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 38 minutes ago, slothfacekilla said: Who is this young-ish top free agent available to even swing for the fences on? It a good idea in theory but I'm not really seeing any potential UFA that really fits the bill unless you consider 28/29 in that category of youngish, and then really all you've got is Guentzel and Reinhart. Anthony Duclair? Teuvo Teräväinen? These are all wingers too. yup. that's the argument for trading for a guy like mittlestadt but it would have cost you edvinsson, most likely. or horvat. that's why you have to draft and develop. good, young centers dont get traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 25 minutes ago, buddha said: good, young centers dont get traded. teams do get into cap hell, those are about the only waters to fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hart Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 Yzerman is working from a really tough position not having a top center to build around. Other players would fit their role so much better if we had that guy. I heard Matt Shepherd say today that fans tend to overrate the players on the team they root for. I agree with him on this as a general rule of thumb. I am not a hockey whiz but I have started following it closer in recent years and I wonder if a guy like Seider is really worth 8.5 million. That's just outside the top 10 in salary for defensiveman. I really don't think Yzerman has any choice but to pay him and hope he keeps developing. But I do wonder if we are overrate our own players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 14 minutes ago, Hart said: Yzerman is working from a really tough position not having a top center to build around. Other players would fit their role so much better if we had that guy. I heard Matt Shepherd say today that fans tend to overrate the players on the team they root for. I agree with him on this as a general rule of thumb. I am not a hockey whiz but I have started following it closer in recent years and I wonder if a guy like Seider is really worth 8.5 million. That's just outside the top 10 in salary for defensiveman. I really don't think Yzerman has any choice but to pay him and hope he keeps developing. But I do wonder if we are overrate our own players. the 8.5ish is in line with other young top defensemen. i understand your point, seider's analytical numbers arent great, but they give him HEAVY responsibility. i do think the physicalness has decreases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 (edited) I've said before that I think Seider could play a more dominant overall role but Wings keep him tied down by scheme, which is a complaint about Lalonde. In Lalonde's defense, when you have a group of forwards who are as weak as defenders as this team, it's a lot easier to keep your big horse at home in front of the net than worry about 9 or 10 guys without the hockey sense (or ability really) to understand when to be ready and willing to rotate back so Seider can be more involved across 200 ft. Edited April 17 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 (edited) 39 minutes ago, buddha said: the 8.5ish is in line with other young top defensemen. i understand your point, seider's analytical numbers arent great, but they give him HEAVY responsibility. i do think the physicalness has decreases. Physicality is decreasing across the game - I'm sure at least in part because everyone is all too aware of concussion protocols and why they are there. Edited April 17 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 6 hours ago, Hongbit said: There is something said for needing continuity but the rebuilding is done and they are ready to compete. Since I don’t think he will ever be the right guy, my ideal time to fire him is right now. Sadly, their record shows the rebuilding is not done and they are not ready to compete. I don’t think they will be ready to compete until/unless Edvinsson, ASP, and one other defensive prospect are ready, until Danielson and Kasper are ready, and until Cossa or Augustine is ready. Next year they will be treading water. Hopefully a full season of Edvinsson amounts to an improvement over the minutes that have been logged by a mediocre defenseman. Since they will be on the fence again next year, I doubt Lalonde will get fired but suspect there will be at least one change behind the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 30 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I've said before that I think Seider could play a more dominant overall role but Wings keep him tied down by scheme, which is a complaint about Lalonde. In Lalonde's defense, when you have a group of forwards who are as weak as defenders as this team, it's a lot easier to keep your big horse at home in front of the net than worry about 9 or 10 guys without the hockey sense (or ability really) to understand when to be ready and willing to rotate back so Seider can be more involved across 200 ft. It is very surprising to see how much more difficult Seider’s minutes have been any other defenseman in the league. I don’t know if I would call this scheme, or a lack of faith in anybody else. But that kid needs help. And he deserves the big contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Jason_R said: Sadly, their record shows the rebuilding is not done and they are not ready to compete. I don’t think they will be ready to compete until/unless Edvinsson, ASP, and one other defensive prospect are ready, until Danielson and Kasper are ready, and until Cossa or Augustine is ready. Next year they will be treading water. Hopefully a full season of Edvinsson amounts to an improvement over the minutes that have been logged by a mediocre defenseman. Since they will be on the fence again next year, I doubt Lalonde will get fired but suspect there will be at least one change behind the bench. the easiest way to cover a lot of faults is for the goal tending to take a big step up when Cossa joins the team and he and a regularly rested Lyon make a stronger pair than they have had in a long time. That's a wish cast, Cossa's NHL game may not match his AHL game, and Lyon might not recapture his January form even with less work; but it is one of few possible chances the Wings have to be significantly better next season. Edited April 17 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 1 hour ago, Jason_R said: Sadly, their record shows the rebuilding is not done and they are not ready to compete. I don’t think they will be ready to compete until/unless Edvinsson, ASP, and one other defensive prospect are ready, until Danielson and Kasper are ready, and until Cossa or Augustine is ready. Next year they will be treading water. Hopefully a full season of Edvinsson amounts to an improvement over the minutes that have been logged by a mediocre defenseman. Since they will be on the fence again next year, I doubt Lalonde will get fired but suspect there will be at least one change behind the bench. Nobody is talking about being a cup contender. I’m taking about the expectation of making the playoffs or fighting close for it almost every year. They competed this year with their top point scorer missing 14 games No reason they shouldn’t be expected to do it again next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 5 hours ago, Hongbit said: They competed this year with their top point scorer missing 14 games No reason they shouldn’t be expected to do it again next year. Just by the numbers, I don't see them being a 95+ point team without improving their goal differential over this season's, so the challenge will be to make up Kane's scoring if Yzerman declines to bid for his services or if Kane simply decides he prefers to go to a better team. His 20 goals are half the improvement from last season. Otherwise they have to hope they can get the improvement on the goals against side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: Just by the numbers, I don't see them being a 95+ point team without improving their goal differential over this season's, so the challenge will be to make up Kane's scoring if Yzerman declines to bid for his services or if Kane simply decides he prefers to go to a better team. His 20 goals are half the improvement from last season. Otherwise they have to hope they can get the improvement on the goals against side. Detroit scored 38 more goals this season than last. Impressive improvement, but yes, they aren't likely to get better next year. They need better players on the back end. Edvinsson will have a full season. Hopefully Cossa is ready at least for a mid-season call up and can start to fulfill some of his draft expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothfacekilla Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 On 4/17/2024 at 7:29 AM, Shinzaki said: Shai Buium has signed a three year entry level deal beginning next year...reporting to the Griffs on a PTO. Sounds like he'll be in the lineup tomorrow for GR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hart Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Any chance Buium makes the team out of camp next year? He's the same age as Edvinsson. Also, the fact Denver shut down a loaded Boston College team in the championship game is encouraging. I know his brother is top prospect but Shai was right there with him in +/- on the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_R Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 1 hour ago, Hart said: Any chance Buium makes the team out of camp next year? He's the same age as Edvinsson. Also, the fact Denver shut down a loaded Boston College team in the championship game is encouraging. I know his brother is top prospect but Shai was right there with him in +/- on the season. This franchise is so conservative with prospects it is hard to be sure they will let Edvinsson make the team out of camp. 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hart Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 10 hours ago, Jason_R said: This franchise is so conservative with prospects it is hard to be sure they will let Edvinsson make the team out of camp. 😉 True. But Raymond did make the team after signing his entry level contract and Seider was not held back either other than spending the covid year playing in Europe. Not sure why they have been so conservative lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted April 19 Author Share Posted April 19 On 4/17/2024 at 5:15 PM, Hart said: Yzerman is working from a really tough position not having a top center to build around. Other players would fit their role so much better if we had that guy. I heard Matt Shepherd say today that fans tend to overrate the players on the team they root for. I agree with him on this as a general rule of thumb. I am not a hockey whiz but I have started following it closer in recent years and I wonder if a guy like Seider is really worth 8.5 million. That's just outside the top 10 in salary for defensiveman. I really don't think Yzerman has any choice but to pay him and hope he keeps developing. But I do wonder if we are overrate our own players. I made a long post about this a few weeks back. Without having a true #1 center, capable of consistently producing 80 points or more in a season to build around, Yzerman is going to have to take the Blues and Golden Knights route to building a Cup contender. I don't see that marquee, #1 center coming to us in free agency or via a trade. As crazy and incredible as it would be to get a Sam Reinhart in here via free agency, I think ideas like that are a pipedream. And so we must go another route. To me, taking the St. Louis and Vegas route means an overhaul of certain parts of this roster and upgrades at others to what what those teams had in their Stanley Cup years: good goaltending from two starters, tough and smart defensively, good two-way hockey players, and scoring depth on three lines. I also don't think this rebuild is going to be completed in this offseason. As crummy and painful as it is to say, I think we are stuck waiting for all of Cossa, Danielson, Kasper, Sandin-Pellika, and Wallinder to come up and contribute. Below I ranked what I believe this teams most pressing needs are. As well, what I think we can do this offseason and what the future looks like for us to become a Cup contender. 1. Defense Outside of a defensemen or two, our defensive defenseman suck. We're towards the bottom of the league in goals allowed and shots given up per game. As well, we make too many mistakes in our own zone on defense and give other teams scoring chances or fail to clear the puck out. We need some more big bodies, who are both physical in their own zone, can press more when coming up ice, and don't make as many mistakes. Sounds easier said than done to find those guys. Jeff Petry and Justin Holl are outright liabilities on the ice and should not be back on this team next season. It looks like Petry would be a $1.968 million cap hit over the next two seasons to buyout and Holl would cost around a $4.533 million overall cap hit to buyout. I'm ok-ish with Holl being on the roster next year if he has to be for another season, but not Petry. I think you buyout Petry, pin a $20 bill to him, and wish him the best of luck in the future. He has got to go. Then there's Ben Chiarot. At least we can say that Chiarot somewhat turned it around this season. Though I am still not sold on trusting him for the long term and given his age, I don't think he is a long term option on defense. After his current contract expires he will an should be gone. If there was a way we could trade him before then I would love to dump that $4.75 million cap hit. But alas, no one is going to take that kind of cap hit on and we are likely stuck with Chiarot for another season. As far as defensive acquisitions go, unless there was a big move to be made of a marquee defensive player, I don't think I'd sign or trade for anyone. We've made too many poor, mid to low end defensive acquisitions that haven't worked out in our favor: Chiarot, Holl, Petry. I would wait until next offseason to get back into the defensive free agent or trade market, unless there was a big move to be had his year. I really depresses me what we're paying Chiarot, Holl, and Petry. Bad moves with ugly contracts. I would do what I can to resign Gostisbehere though as he has been productive on the powerplay and we can afford to take a step back there. If we could get him for 1-2 years at $4 million a season or so I'd go for that. I'm also ready see what we have with some of the kids. I think we should see Simon Edvinsson up to start next season on the main roster. I think William Wallinder should be brought up at some point in the season and given a test drive as well to see what we have. Last, but certainly not least we get to resigning Mo Seider. It's finally time to pay up and we're going to have to give his kid a big contract. Based on projections I have seen I think he gets somewhere around 8 years @ $8.5-$8.75 million/year. Both he and Raymond are in for large, long term deals. Off-Season Moves: Resign Gostisbehere at 2 years @ $4 million/season, Buyout Petry at a $1.968 cap hit Call ups: Edvinsson to start the year and eventually Wallinder 2023-2024 Defensive Unit: Chiarot, Edvinsson, Gostisbehere, Holl, Maatta, Seider, Wallinder, Wallman 2024-2025 Defensive Unit: Chiarot, Edvinsson, Gostisbehere, Seider, Wallinder, Wallman, free agent/trade acquisition 2. Goaltending I look at goaltending as the one area that needs a complete overhaul because you have to replace 2 of your 3 starters if you want to have a chance to emulate what St. Louis and Vegas did. When the Blues won the cup they had both Jake Allen and Jordan Binnington, Vegas ad Adin Hill and Laurent Brossoit. We're going to have to overhaul our netminder situation and get two strong starting goalies. We're all obviously hoping that Cossa can come up within the next year and be our Goalie #1 of the future. If that is the case, then I think we can rely on Lyon as Goalie #2 until and if Augustine develops. Husso can't be around here much longer though and he can't be apart of a playoff team that has aspirations to actually get out of the first round. Right now Husso is just dead, unproductive weight with his $4.75 million cap hit. He's got to go and that money has to be spent better elsewhere. Unless I am reading it wrong it would cost roughly $3.166 million in cap hit over the next two season to boyout Husso. If that's what costs then bon voyage Husso. Looking ahead to free agency or the trade market, I'm not sure I would make a significant move here. I know some would like to, but I'm willing to be patient (something I am normally not) for Cossa to come up and be our starter. I'd rather spend free agent or trade dollars elsewhere given that we have Cossa and Augustine in the farm system with Cossa ready to come up sooner rather than later. I'd be looking to make a move down the line, after next season, to bring in another netminder to pair with Cossa and possibly Lyon. Off-Season Moves: Buyout Husso at a $3.166 million cap hit Call up: Cossa 2023-2024 Goalies: Cossa, Lyon, Reimer 2024-2025 Goalies: Cossa, Lyon, free agent/trade acquisition or Augustine 3. Center position Larkin is not a number 1A center, he's really a 1B center. But there is nothing we can do about this. He's our guy at the top moving forward, for better or for worse. So it's everything around him we're going to have to try and make better. We're also stuck with the boat anchor contracts of both Andrew Copp and JT Compher for the next 2-3 seasons, so we better hope they can produce. We're going to need scoring depth and points produced from these two guys at the center position otherwise we are doomed given the lengthy contracts each guy has. If I could trade Copp somehow I'd do it. I'd certainly be actively shopping him, but whose going to want to take on his $5.625 million cap hit? Probably no one. Looking ahead to the free agency and trade markets here, this is yet another area where unless there is a marquee move to be made on a top tier player, I'm standing pat and calling someone up at some point. I would probably resign Valeno on a 1-2 year deal and call it a day as far as moves go. I expect Kasper to be up next year at some point and Nate Danielson the year after that. Off-Season Moves: Resign Valeno, Call up: Marco Kasper at some point 2023-2024 Centers: Compher, Copp, Kasper, Larkin, Rasmussen, Valeno 2024-2025 Centers: Compher, Copp, Danielson, Kasper, Larkin, Rasmussen 4. Forward/winger This is where things get both interesting and potentially ugly. We obviously have to resign Lucas Raymond. Given his play this past year, that price tag obviously went up, way up. That's a good thing because that means we have a guy capable of producing 70-80 points on this team. But he's going to be a big cap hit moving forward. I project he resigns at somewhere around 8 years @ $60-$65 million with an $8-8125 million/year cap hit. As a result of having to pay Raymond there are guys that will be cap casualties and won't be back next season. Those being Perron and Sprong. I expect both to be gone and there is the possibility of Christian Fischer joining them as a cap casualty too. I'd like to bring back Fischer and would hope Yzerman can find a way to get it done. I could see Fabbri being a cap casualty the year after next as well given his $4 million/year price tag. Then we get to Patrick Kane. I think he should be back and I would think Yzerman wants him back. But does he want to come back is a different question. Given his productivity and age, this is his last chance at a semi-big contract. I would think he's going to ask for more than the $2.275 we paid him. He might bolt for a Cup contending team next year and I don't blame him. As far as what a Kane contract looks like in-terms of length or dollars, I really have no clue. I took an overly generous shot in the dark and said 2 years @ $4.5 million/year. I don't know that I am making a big move here either, other than paying Raymond and possibly bringing back Kane, when it comes to free agency or the trade market. My only other moves of note here are to call up Carter Mauzur and Elmer Soderblom next year and then Dmitri Buchelnikov the year after that if he's any good. Off-Season Moves: Resign Raymond to 8 years @ $60 million, resign Kane to 2 years @ $4.5 million/year Callups: Mazur and Soderblom 2023-2024 Forwards: DeBrincat, Fabbri, Fischer, Kane, Mazur, Raymond, Soderblum 2024-2025 Forwards: Buchelnikov, DeBrincat, Fischer, Kane, Mazur, Raymond, Soderblum 23 Man roster to start next year Centers: Compher, Copp, Kasper, Larkin, Rasmussen, Valeno Forwards: DeBrincat, Fabbri, Fischer, Kane, Mazur, Raymond, Soderblum Defense: Chiarot, Edvinsson, Gostisbehere, Maatta, Seider, Wallinder, Wallman (Holl can go sit in Grand Rapids) Goalies: Cossa, Lyon, Reimer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 1 hour ago, Hart said: True. But Raymond did make the team after signing his entry level contract and Seider was not held back either other than spending the covid year playing in Europe. Not sure why they have been so conservative lately. I don't think conservative is the correct terminology. I think what Yzerman is doing, even if it involves signing a bunch of journeymen veterans... is to demand a higher level of skill/ commitment/ NHL-level responsibility/ and NHL-level compete from prospects trying to break onto the Wings roster. The current roster still didn't make the playoffs. But it just missed, and it's the best team showing since we last made the playoffs. So the bar is now higher, and has to be met or exceeded in order to make the roster. I guess that could be called "conservative"... but I'm thinking more along the lines of "we are demanding more". "The bar is higher so you have to jump higher." I don't consider this a bad thing at all. Demanding more from upcoming prospects. If they can do anything they want to, and still get NHL ice time simply because the team is so desperate... I think is exactly what Yzerman is fighting against and therefore, is creating the higher bar for them to jump over. In fact, I think this is absolutely a smart thing to do on Yzerman's part... I approve this philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothfacekilla Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 I watched Patrick Kane's media availability yesterday and the vibe I get from it is that the thing that is most important to him is that he gets a longer-term contract from his next team. I'm not sure that's the way Yzerman wants to go with him but it'll be interesting to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 3 minutes ago, slothfacekilla said: I watched Patrick Kane's media availability yesterday and the vibe I get from it is that the thing that is most important to him is that he gets a longer-term contract from his next team. I'm not sure that's the way Yzerman wants to go with him but it'll be interesting to see. I'll go out on a limb and say I am. There is still a chance he is back, but only if no other team offers him >2yrs. And I'd almost be surprised to see the Wings offer him 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I'll go out on a limb and say I am. There is still a chance he is back, but only if no other team offers him >2yrs. And I'd almost be surprised to see the Wings offer him 2. I think 2 is the max Yzerman would be willing to commit to. Also... "seeking a long-term contract" means to me, not only term, but as much $$$ as he can squeeze into this (most likely) last contract. I think this is the death knell for Kane remaining with the Wings. It won't be more than 2 years (Yzerman would be open to... guessing), and I don't believe it can get much higher than $4.5 mill AAV (another guess), and I'm guessing Yzerman's willingness may be even a lower AAV than that. Totally unknown, what's actually on Yzerman's mind. But on a WAG... Kane is pricing himself out of Detroit, one way or another. Time to move on to the kids... IMO. Mazur will have to take his place. Totally different kind of player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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