The Politics of Electric Vehicles

[chasfh]

I'm not sure whether this has strong enough legs to carry as its own political topic, but I figure with the approval to build an EV charging station network, as mentioned in the following post, plus the fact that most of us are based or have roots in the car capital, I would think there will still be a lot of political wrangling about this issue in the years to come ... as well as a lot of funny and relevant tweets about the topic we can repost here.

[chasfh]

Batting leadoff:

 

The one thing I still object to when it comes to buying a fully electric vehicle is right in this article:

By year’s end, drivers could start seeing expansions and upgrades to existing highway EV stations in states such as California, Colorado, Florida and Pennsylvania that now feature at least four fast-charger ports, enabling EVs to fully recharge in about an hour.

"About an hour" ... that's way too long. If I am driving across the country and I have time to make, I don't want to have to take one hour in every five waiting around for my vehicle to fill up before I can keep going—and that's setting aside the idea that all the chargers might be full once I get there and I'll have to waiting possibly hours to get charged up in the first place.

They've got to get charging down to 15 minutes or less to get me really interested in going 100% EV.

 

[Motown Bombers]

They will get charging down to 15 minutes or less eventually. That is also for a full charge. A lot of cars now you can get to 80% charge relatively quick. It's the last 20% that takes the longest. With more chargers you can charge up to 80% and continue to the next charger and fill to 80% and so on. 

[Motown Bombers]

I'll have to look for it, but there was a Youtube video of a guy who drove his gas powered car from Salt Lake City to San Francisco to pick up an EV. Overall, it only took him about 45 minutes longer to drive the EV than the gas car. 

[CMRivdogs]

I'll throw this here. The proposal in Va for stations located mostly along interstates.

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2022/09/21/what-virginia-wants-to-do-with-100-million-in-electric-vehicle-charging-money/

I figure we're still a few years away from being fully vested in buying into electric vehicles. I am interested to see how the experiments in SE Michigan with "electric" roads. Stretches of highway or city streets that will charge your vehicle. I think Ford is developing a project near the old train station and Michigan has entered into agreement with a firm doing something similar.

Here's the AXIO's story

https://www.axios.com/newsletters/axios-detroit-a7a460fe-3527-4ecd-ba59-3a5b44b3f32f.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslocal_detroit&stream=top

Quote

A road that charges electric vehicles without them needing to be plugged in is expected to open later this year.

How it works: Rubber-covered copper coils installed under a road's surface can charge electric vehicles as they drive.

Why it matters: The project, which officials hope will result in a national deployment of EV-charging roads, helps put Detroit at the forefront of EV infrastructure development.

• In-road charging networks could be designed so electric public transit or delivery vehicles can save money by reducing charging times.
• Such cost-saving potential could lead to faster EV adoption. 

Driving the news: The state entered a five-year agreement last week with Electreon, a publicly traded Israeli company, to further develop and deploy electrified roads.

Between the lines: The agreement builds on the Detroit pilot project — a one-mile stretch of road in Corktown — that will help understand how best to use EV-charging roads.

• The exact location of the project isn't public yet. It will be integrated into the mobility campus under development at the Michigan Central train depot.

What they're saying: "This is what Detroit's been doing for centuries, from three-colored traffic lights to paved roads," Michigan chief mobility officer Trevor Pawl tells Axios. "Michigan — and specifically Detroit — has an obligation, not just an opportunity, to lead the world in what the roads of the future look like, what the cities of the future look like, really."

 

[romad1]

52 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

I'll throw this here. The proposal in Va for stations located mostly along interstates.

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2022/09/21/what-virginia-wants-to-do-with-100-million-in-electric-vehicle-charging-money/

I figure we're still a few years away from being fully vested in buying into electric vehicles. I am interested to see how the experiments in SE Michigan with "electric" roads. Stretches of highway or city streets that will charge your vehicle. I think Ford is developing a project near the old train station and Michigan has entered into agreement with a firm doing something similar.

Here's the AXIO's story

https://www.axios.com/newsletters/axios-detroit-a7a460fe-3527-4ecd-ba59-3a5b44b3f32f.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslocal_detroit&stream=top

 

That is amazing!

[RatkoVarda]

Germany is pretty far along developing roads that charge EVs. Theoretically in our lifetimes, you could leave home and run errands and come back with more charge than you left with.

https://news.motors.co.uk/german-company-creates-concrete-roads-that-can-charge-evs-as-they-drive-along/

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

I'll throw this here. The proposal in Va for stations located mostly along interstates.

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2022/09/21/what-virginia-wants-to-do-with-100-million-in-electric-vehicle-charging-money/

I figure we're still a few years away from being fully vested in buying into electric vehicles. I am interested to see how the experiments in SE Michigan with "electric" roads. Stretches of highway or city streets that will charge your vehicle. I think Ford is developing a project near the old train station and Michigan has entered into agreement with a firm doing something similar.

Here's the AXIO's story

https://www.axios.com/newsletters/axios-detroit-a7a460fe-3527-4ecd-ba59-3a5b44b3f32f.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslocal_detroit&stream=top

 

I'm pretty skeptical about this one. It would require a level of attention to road surface maintenance that you just don't see in most places in the US, certainly not in the midwest with the constant freeze/thaw cycling. But in the end the drive toward this type of capability depends directly on how much battery tech development can improve charging times. If systems get down to 10-15 minute or so charge time, it won't be worth the capital to spend what would be needed to build and maintain 'charging roads.'  If battery charging tech stagnates and can't make progress from the current situation, then maybe.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

22 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Germany is pretty far along developing roads that charge EVs. Theoretically in our lifetimes, you could leave home and run errands and come back with more charge than you left with.

https://news.motors.co.uk/german-company-creates-concrete-roads-that-can-charge-evs-as-they-drive-along/

This is just an empty prediction on my part, but I think you'll see a lot of the European Social Democracies + Australia, China, Japan, and South Korea lap us on EV charging technology and investment, including charging roads. There seems to be the public and political will to invest in EV infrastructure. For some reason, the right and MAGA folks in this country, as an electorate, seem to have a disdain for EVs for some reason. Owning the libs or opposing it on a just because Democrats support it basis I guess.

[romad1]

28 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Germany is pretty far along developing roads that charge EVs. Theoretically in our lifetimes, you could leave home and run errands and come back with more charge than you left with.

https://news.motors.co.uk/german-company-creates-concrete-roads-that-can-charge-evs-as-they-drive-along/

The VW engineer I talk to on a regular basis is not a fan of electric vehicles.   

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

This is just an empty prediction on my part, but I think you'll see a lot of the European Social Democracies + Australia, China, Japan, and South Korea lap us on EV charging technology and investment, including charging roads. There seems to be the public and political will to invest in EV infrastructure. For some reason, the right and MAGA folks in this country, as an electorate, seem to have a disdain for EVs for some reason. Owning the libs or opposing it on a just because Democrats support it basis I guess.

It's weird since Texas gave Elon Musk billions in tax breaks but absolute loath his cars and the people who buy them. They seem more interested in Musk the charlatan and grifter. 

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, romad1 said:

The VW engineer I talk to on a regular basis is not a fan of electric vehicles.   

I know GM engineers who feel the same way. I think it's more they're resistant to change. 

[CMRivdogs]

I am starting to see a few businesses set up charging stations for customers. Not just 2 or 3 stations but in some cases a portion of their parking lot. I know DTW has had a couple of spaces in both garages for several years. I'm not sure what their policy is/was for long term usage.

But I can see some sort of arrangement with grocery chains, restaurants, etc. even if it's a for pay charging spot. Much like the hourly parking rates/apps 

[romad1]

42 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

I am starting to see a few businesses set up charging stations for customers. Not just 2 or 3 stations but in some cases a portion of their parking lot. I know DTW has had a couple of spaces in both garages for several years. I'm not sure what their policy is/was for long term usage.

But I can see some sort of arrangement with grocery chains, restaurants, etc. even if it's a for pay charging spot. Much like the hourly parking rates/apps 

Very prevalent in urban and suburban areas now

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

I know GM engineers who feel the same way. I think it's more they're resistant to change. 

EVs and EV tech are fine. The only issue is EV production outrunning the supply of low CO2 electricity. There is no point putting EV's on the road and then burning coal to charge them up.

my guess is that for a number of years EV and ICs will co-exist, with most people  going to work and shop with an EV, and take long trips with a IC/hybrid car. If fast charging tech proves itself over the next decade, then those last IC will also exit the scene - but it's a still early on the development curve to be able to make that call.

Edited September 28, 2022 by gehringer_2

[CMRivdogs]

27 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

 

Tmy guess is that for a number of years EV and ICs will co-exist, with most people  going to work and shop with an EV, and take long trips with a IC/hybrid car. If fast charging tech proves itself over the next decade, then those last IC will also exit the scene - but it's a still early on the development curve to be able to make that call.

Very pleased with our RAV4 Hybrid getting 40 plus MPG. We're in no hurry to upgrade. That factored with the probability we'll be a one car couple within the next year or so anyway. 

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'm pretty skeptical about this one. It would require a level of attention to road surface maintenance that you just don't see in most places in the US, certainly not in the midwest with the constant freeze/thaw cycling. But in the end the drive toward this type of capability depends directly on how much battery tech development can improve charging times. If systems get down to 10-15 minute or so charge time, it won't be worth the capital to spend what would be needed to build and maintain 'charging roads.'  If battery charging tech stagnates and can't make progress from the current situation, then maybe.

I'm pretty certain...

Based on USA dynamics...

That we will end up with a network of charging stations, not charging roads.

The charging stations (massive parking lots with a massive amount of fast-charging stations) will be surrounded by convenience stores & fast food restaurants. People will plan their road trips accordingly.

But I'm just guessing...

[romad1]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

I'm pretty certain...

Based on USA dynamics...

That we will end up with a network of charging stations, not charging roads.

The charging stations (massive parking lots with a massive amount of fast-charging stations) will be surrounded by convenience stores & fast food restaurants. People will plan their road trips accordingly.

But I'm just guessing...

The Ohio and PA turnpike rest plazas are buffoonish in terms of traffic management.  I can't imagine where the charging stations could feature in those complexes. 

[1984Echoes]

A puzzle yet to be solved...

[chasfh]

38 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I'm pretty certain...

Based on USA dynamics...

That we will end up with a network of charging stations, not charging roads.

The charging stations (massive parking lots with a massive amount of fast-charging stations) will be surrounded by convenience stores & fast food restaurants. People will plan their road trips accordingly.

But I'm just guessing...

That's kind of what I thought when I heard about the charging stations along the interstate. They'll make some of them like toll road oases with multiple fast food joints and a c-store.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

That's kind of what I thought when I heard about the charging stations along the interstate. They'll make some of them like toll road oases with multiple fast food joints and a c-store.

USA's motto, which makes me think exactly this:

"There's money to be made."

It's as simple as that...

[RatkoVarda]

as someone who owns 2 EVs and is looking at a 3rd (no ICE auto) I fully endorse EVs to everyone

they don't fit everyone's needs but they do fit most people's needs

considering many families have 2 or 2+ cars, having one of those as a EV would almost always make sense

the crazy misconceptions about owning an EV drive a lot of the resistance to them

they are expensive, but between the tax breaks, fuel savings, maintenance savings, and greater convenience of owning an EV (charging at home 95% of the time is much better than a gas station visit), it all really equals out

[ben9753]

A great breakdown for anyone who's looking into a EV. 

https://youtu.be/Iyp_X3mwE1w

[apabruce]

If charging wern't an issue, would you buy an electric car?  My wife and I are retired, and haven't driven farther than 100 miles from our house for many years.  For us, th edecision was "yes."

We charge in our garage overnight, or even less often.  Her car has 250 minles or range and mine has 300.  I can't tell the difference in my electric bill.  Meanwhile, I have no fuel injection, no muffler, no cooling system, transmission, and probably several other things I don't know about.  I have gained a heat pump, but now I have my car producing hot or cool air by the time I get to the end of my driveway.

[apabruce]

There was an article in todlay's paper about a new plant (?), or whatever you can call it, coming on line.  It combines a wind farm, a solar farm, and a huge bank of baterries.  Apparently it can produce enough for a small city.  I wonder how it would scale up?