1984Echoes

The 70's ruined me. Of COURSE every Tiger prospect is going to be great! I already SEEN it HAPPEN!!!

1977. Steve Kemp, Lance Parrish, Lou Whitaker and Alan Trammell all broke into MLB in 1977. Although only Kemp produced that year. The other 3 were Sept. callups I believe that ramped up in 1978. Oh... Tim Corcoran in 1977 too... 😉

The 2nd one. Gaetz gets burned in the second scenario as well.

I don't want barely average guys. I think our competitiveness will ramp up VERY quickly. Even if we hit only 85-ish wins next year... IMO, this team is going to have a very large growth curve from 2024-2027... we'll see how high we can get with that... Which means I don't want barely average guys. I'm looking at the top of the market, for any position player or pitcher - starter or reliever - add Harris can swing. If someone is not any better than Manning Mize or Olson, why even look at them? Same with Lange. Same with Keith/ Malloy/ Jung. Same with Carpenter. If we're not looking at guys who are improvements on any of those guys... than why are we even looking? So.. starters: Yamamoto or Snell. Closer: Hader. OF'er: Jung Hoo Lee, or Soto or Tatis. 3B'man? Maybe Westburg is an ace fielder there and we can wrangle him away from the Orioles without a crazy cost, and he'd be better at 3B (and provide just enough offense) than anyone else we could put there. That makes it a sensible move I believe. Hader is a HUGE improvement over ANYONE that we currently have in the BP. He makes everyone better by putting them in a position to succeed rather than having to overreach their abilities. He's a sensible signing. IMO.

Also, maybe it will just take a little while for Campbell to diagnose NFL plays faster and until then he's slower to the ball. I believe it took Barnes 2-3 years before he started diagnosing plays faster...?

Alternatively, because I don't think the Orioles will let go of their 20-something IF'ers that are already in Baltimore... I would look at AAA for a blocked IF'er... That would be Coby Mayo, who plays 3B (and also 1B), is RH'ed with power. I don't know if he's that great of a fielding 3B'man.... but I think the only way you pull a Westburg out of Baltimore is for them to have a better 2B option... Or for them to like Mayo better than Westburg and move Gunnar from 3B to 2B (he's played SS so I'm just guessing that he could handle 2B without any issues...); making Westburg available.

ZINGGGG!!!! 😉

PS: On Soto or Tatis... I'm signing Bellinger and sticking him at 1B; and then trading Tork, Carpenter, and whatever else is required for Tatis. Let the Padres take a chance on Tork's (potential) further development and I'll take Bellinger and Tatis. Just a thought...

So that means if Eduardo opts out, and maybe even if he doesn't, then it's: Yamamoto first priority. Blake Snell second priority. Everybody else is a weak move. I'm still Yamamoto and Hader or bust.

Oh wait... I think I got you... Is it really that bad (without looking...)?

This guy? https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/u/uriasju01.shtml I'm not getting your point. The guy I am referencing (per BB-Ref above), is 27 and a FA pitcher this offseason if I have that correct. 1.1 career WHIP as a starter for the Dodgers, 9 K's/9 and 2.4 BB's/9 for a 3.7 K-BB ratio... sounds EXACTLY like a Harris type of starter. Who are you referencing that's pitched his last inning in MLB?

If you're trying to win 95+ games, and not 85-ish... I believe he is a necessary component. Not the ONLY component to go from 85 to 95... but IMO, a necessary one.

A few more thoughts on Hader: 1) Career numbers = 0.95 WHIP, 15 K's/ 9, 4.9 hits per 9. 2) But I'm not really signing him for his career numbers, at least not exclusively. I'm signing him for wins. I'm not looking for my first sign to be a Boyd or Lorenzen-type (not to misdirect, but I'm going to go through a rotation signing philosophy to illustrate using the same philosophy that I want in a Bullpen signing). I'm looking at Urias or Yamamoto, a potential top of the rotation starter (#1 or 2, whatever works with Skubal). Julio Urias is 27, but how do you get him away from the Dodgers? Yamamoto is 25 and the Tigers only need to win the Posting amount, and then pay a contract to him. To me, the money doesn't factor in this decision. Only potential wins; and Urias/ Yamamoto are best bets for adding wins by starting pitching, AND ALSO "SETTLING" the rotation (conceivably... all the best laid plans of mice and men and such...). Or at least helping to settle it. The SAME thing goes for Hader. He doesn't have to be Rivera. I don't care if he costs $20 mill/ year for 3 or 4 years... he will get this team WINS by being shut-down in the 9th, and, this is important... he will SETTLE the bullpen and be a leader there. IMO. 3) Does being a leader mean showing the rest of the guys a special pitch/ or grip he has that improves everyone? I don't know anything about that so maybe yes maybe no. But I think he ends up at least a leader by just being there because it means that no one with lesser "stuff" or make-up ends up out of place as the "closer". It means set up guys can be set up guys, rather than putting Lange there by default. The trickle down effect improves the BP overall. And gets us more wins. I'm hunting 95+ wins. I'm NOT looking for half-measures. Again, I could care less about Chris Ilitch's money, and he's said he will spend it... so... the time is now Chris. 4) There is one other oddball point I want to call out for in favor of Hader. Again from a leadership point of view. We have a kid in AA who is mowing down guys at 13 K's/9, sometimes he's up to 15 K's/9, giving up 6 hits per 9. I'd like to see him make it to MLB mid-to-late 2024, or maybe in 2025. Tyler Mattison. I'd like to see him in set up. I'd like to see Hader take him under his wing and groom the kid for us, for the future. This is obviously just a personal want. But there you have it. I have my reasons for wanting Hader. Most of those reasons revolve around winning more games. The cost of his contract is meaningless to me. And I have other reasons for wanting him as I've outlined above. My mantra this offseason is: Yamamoto and Hader or bust. If we get them, anything else we do on TOP of that is just gravy to me... If we don't get them, and make weaker moves: then I'll call it out as exactly what I think those moves are: weak.

We're so below market in allocated funds that spending money on Hader is a drop of spit in the bucket.

Ohtani? Or Bellinger?

Manning 2023 WHIP = 1.04 Skubal 2023 WHIP = 0.90 Boyd's career WHIP = 1.32 Norris's career WHIP = 1.40 Fulmer's career WHIP = 1.26 Manning and Skubal are, RIGHT NOW, better than any of those 3, and better than they ever WERE. Mize? TBD.

And aside from stats.. there are also personalities involved.

WAR is not the ONLY measure of comparable.

That wouldn't stop me. I would take that calculated risk, along with the shut-down talent and the 9th inning (only) lock.

No context whatsoever. An easy historical counting stat for you to refer to since Fulmer started out hot. How many WAR does Fulmer have in the 6 years since Fulmer put up that 9.4? 3? I'll tell you what, I will bet as much money as you want that Manning Mize & Skubal put up more WAR starting in 2024 through the end of their careers than your 3 have their ENTIRE careers. You have a 27 WAR head start and still counting... Wanna bet?

They're already better than Fulmer-Boyd-Norris. I know we don't have a current rotation of HOF'ers... but they're already "in-between" as you are hoping for. I brought up JV and Scherzer because everyone believes they are being SOOOO F'ing clever bringing up failures of the past. Case in point: This is who you ORIGINALLY listed... WTF do those 3 guys have to do with Skubal-Mize-Manning-Brieske-Faedo-Olson-Gipson-Long, etc...? Who are ALL pitching in MLB already, with varying degrees of success. From top-of-the-rotation starter to effective bullpen guys. WTF is going on with these OH SO CLEVER listings of previous failures? Not to bash on you because you didn't start this... but it's actually F'ing annoying. And it adds NOTHING to the discussion of how to set this team up for success in 2024 and beyond. /Soapbox.

PS: Mize, Manning and Skubal. Just to reiterate.

Invalid comparison. None of those guys were ever considered as anything more than 5th starters/ back-enders/ possible relievers. Faedo for several years has been looked at as targeted for the BP. And Brieske is already in the BP so moot point.

Why not Verlander, Scherzer and Porcello?

MLB should do it just like the minor leagues. If half a dozen top umpire "prospects" are in AAA, then graduate 1 of them and demote Hernandez to the PCL (no, NOT to Toledo!!!). Or put Angel on the "IL" for a few weeks to at least see if the AAA Umpire brought up to the Show is good enough...