1984Echoes

This guy? https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/u/uriasju01.shtml I'm not getting your point. The guy I am referencing (per BB-Ref above), is 27 and a FA pitcher this offseason if I have that correct. 1.1 career WHIP as a starter for the Dodgers, 9 K's/9 and 2.4 BB's/9 for a 3.7 K-BB ratio... sounds EXACTLY like a Harris type of starter. Who are you referencing that's pitched his last inning in MLB?

If you're trying to win 95+ games, and not 85-ish... I believe he is a necessary component. Not the ONLY component to go from 85 to 95... but IMO, a necessary one.

A few more thoughts on Hader: 1) Career numbers = 0.95 WHIP, 15 K's/ 9, 4.9 hits per 9. 2) But I'm not really signing him for his career numbers, at least not exclusively. I'm signing him for wins. I'm not looking for my first sign to be a Boyd or Lorenzen-type (not to misdirect, but I'm going to go through a rotation signing philosophy to illustrate using the same philosophy that I want in a Bullpen signing). I'm looking at Urias or Yamamoto, a potential top of the rotation starter (#1 or 2, whatever works with Skubal). Julio Urias is 27, but how do you get him away from the Dodgers? Yamamoto is 25 and the Tigers only need to win the Posting amount, and then pay a contract to him. To me, the money doesn't factor in this decision. Only potential wins; and Urias/ Yamamoto are best bets for adding wins by starting pitching, AND ALSO "SETTLING" the rotation (conceivably... all the best laid plans of mice and men and such...). Or at least helping to settle it. The SAME thing goes for Hader. He doesn't have to be Rivera. I don't care if he costs $20 mill/ year for 3 or 4 years... he will get this team WINS by being shut-down in the 9th, and, this is important... he will SETTLE the bullpen and be a leader there. IMO. 3) Does being a leader mean showing the rest of the guys a special pitch/ or grip he has that improves everyone? I don't know anything about that so maybe yes maybe no. But I think he ends up at least a leader by just being there because it means that no one with lesser "stuff" or make-up ends up out of place as the "closer". It means set up guys can be set up guys, rather than putting Lange there by default. The trickle down effect improves the BP overall. And gets us more wins. I'm hunting 95+ wins. I'm NOT looking for half-measures. Again, I could care less about Chris Ilitch's money, and he's said he will spend it... so... the time is now Chris. 4) There is one other oddball point I want to call out for in favor of Hader. Again from a leadership point of view. We have a kid in AA who is mowing down guys at 13 K's/9, sometimes he's up to 15 K's/9, giving up 6 hits per 9. I'd like to see him make it to MLB mid-to-late 2024, or maybe in 2025. Tyler Mattison. I'd like to see him in set up. I'd like to see Hader take him under his wing and groom the kid for us, for the future. This is obviously just a personal want. But there you have it. I have my reasons for wanting Hader. Most of those reasons revolve around winning more games. The cost of his contract is meaningless to me. And I have other reasons for wanting him as I've outlined above. My mantra this offseason is: Yamamoto and Hader or bust. If we get them, anything else we do on TOP of that is just gravy to me... If we don't get them, and make weaker moves: then I'll call it out as exactly what I think those moves are: weak.

We're so below market in allocated funds that spending money on Hader is a drop of spit in the bucket.

Ohtani? Or Bellinger?

Manning 2023 WHIP = 1.04 Skubal 2023 WHIP = 0.90 Boyd's career WHIP = 1.32 Norris's career WHIP = 1.40 Fulmer's career WHIP = 1.26 Manning and Skubal are, RIGHT NOW, better than any of those 3, and better than they ever WERE. Mize? TBD.

And aside from stats.. there are also personalities involved.

WAR is not the ONLY measure of comparable.

That wouldn't stop me. I would take that calculated risk, along with the shut-down talent and the 9th inning (only) lock.

No context whatsoever. An easy historical counting stat for you to refer to since Fulmer started out hot. How many WAR does Fulmer have in the 6 years since Fulmer put up that 9.4? 3? I'll tell you what, I will bet as much money as you want that Manning Mize & Skubal put up more WAR starting in 2024 through the end of their careers than your 3 have their ENTIRE careers. You have a 27 WAR head start and still counting... Wanna bet?

They're already better than Fulmer-Boyd-Norris. I know we don't have a current rotation of HOF'ers... but they're already "in-between" as you are hoping for. I brought up JV and Scherzer because everyone believes they are being SOOOO F'ing clever bringing up failures of the past. Case in point: This is who you ORIGINALLY listed... WTF do those 3 guys have to do with Skubal-Mize-Manning-Brieske-Faedo-Olson-Gipson-Long, etc...? Who are ALL pitching in MLB already, with varying degrees of success. From top-of-the-rotation starter to effective bullpen guys. WTF is going on with these OH SO CLEVER listings of previous failures? Not to bash on you because you didn't start this... but it's actually F'ing annoying. And it adds NOTHING to the discussion of how to set this team up for success in 2024 and beyond. /Soapbox.

PS: Mize, Manning and Skubal. Just to reiterate.

Invalid comparison. None of those guys were ever considered as anything more than 5th starters/ back-enders/ possible relievers. Faedo for several years has been looked at as targeted for the BP. And Brieske is already in the BP so moot point.

Why not Verlander, Scherzer and Porcello?

MLB should do it just like the minor leagues. If half a dozen top umpire "prospects" are in AAA, then graduate 1 of them and demote Hernandez to the PCL (no, NOT to Toledo!!!). Or put Angel on the "IL" for a few weeks to at least see if the AAA Umpire brought up to the Show is good enough...

Ohtani = pipe dream, he ain't leaving the Angels. Grandal = 35 and on his last legs and won't give you what you think you're going to get with him. Chapman = will be 31 next year and is DECLINING. Terrible suggestion. Too much money and too many years for a declining player? No thanks. Bellinger is the one suggestion here that would be interesting. He can play 1B, and is only 28. A LH'er with pop and plate discipline and positional flexibility (OF and 1B) that can take some time away from Tork if he can't make further improvements or stay in the OF if Tork DOES make significant improvements... I would approve this signing if this is the direction Harris wants to go. I also like Lee's suggestion of signing Jung Hoo Lee, I believe he is being posted this year as well as Yamamoto... Except I don't think he has much power and he doesn't play 1B. If I had a choice of one I think I choose Bellinger over Jung, but adding either (or BOTH) allows Harris to make additional moves as Carpenter/ Baddoo most likely become expendable at that point... Just my 2 cents.

dumb response. We know exactly who's going to be a FA this year. Oh look, you just named 3 bats!

Name those bats.

I'm with G2. The Dems know they have a winning hand with McCarthy out of the picture. They would vote with the fascist Republicans for McCarthy's removal because the hard right can NOT win another hard right speaker. The Problem Solvers Republicans and other moderate Republicans will put up a moderate Speaker option and 100% of Dems will side with them. Bipartisan legislation to follow and hard right Republicans humiliated. Am I dreaming or is that real? Hmmm.... Just (wishful) thinking out loud... But I think I'm right at least with what the Dems thinking about that.

Yep. developing... and evaluating.

Doesn't have anything to do whatsoever with our current situation. De nada.

I agree with this 100% as I don't see the team having excess pitching DURING 2024... But they may POSSIBLY have excess pitching AFTER 2024. That would be dependent on Mize coming back 100% and actually showing something, Manning taking another step or two (don't know if that's possible). Skubal showing 100%-season-health, the continuing development of Olson, Gipson-Long, Madden, and even Jobe (can he get to AAA in 2024? Or even a cup in September...? Or will he be on a longer timeline...?). Also Hurter and Flores on the outside as AAA depth... To say nothing of any additional injuries that slow 1 or a few of these guys down... There are too many questions right now to toss aside any top-level pitching. And I don't think there will be offers of much for Spencer Turnbull. I think we have a lot of REALLY good arms... but these guys need to settle into some consistency before Harris can start pulling triggers on any starting pitcher trades... IMO.

Not really. It applied when Greene & Tork & Carpenter and some of the pitchers came up, pretty much all at the same time. But that was two years ago... We have a 2nd wave coming up, with Keith, Malloy, Jung, Wenceel, Madden, Dingler, Jobe, Mattison etc... But that should be mostly in 2024 and partly in 2025. After that, I expect the team to be more or less settled and then it's no longer dependent on whether upcoming kids sink or swim (like Max Clark/ McGonigle/ Paul Wilson/ Carson Rucker/ Jaden Hamm/ etc...). And more dependent on the continuing excellence of the "veterans". At that point, I expect additions/ subtractions to the team to be 10% or so... Not 30-40%. And "draft and development" able to make contributions to continuing Tigers playoff competitiveness, versus the make-or-break spot we now find ourselves in.

point.

And Schoop. That alone should provide a big WAR jump.