buddha Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 im confusing hanas with mazur. i think mazur has a good chance to be very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordstanley Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 I’m not dogging on Yzerman. I don’t think he has made any real missteps and on an individual basis his moves have worked out more often than not. But building a winner takes good luck and catching lightning in a bottle and so far that hasn’t happened yet. In other words,I’m slightly disappointed with where we are at 4 years into Yzerman’s leadership but don’t blame him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 12 minutes ago, lordstanley said: I’m not dogging on Yzerman. I don’t think he has made any real missteps and on an individual basis his moves have worked out more often than not. But building a winner takes good luck and catching lightning in a bottle and so far that hasn’t happened yet. In other words,I’m slightly disappointed with where we are at 4 years into Yzerman’s leadership but don’t blame him. that is my disappointment as well, but i havent given up that we have "lightning in a bottle" in kasper or even mazur. but in the long run, they have to get a top line finisher either in this draft or the next plus a top free agent. theyre just not talented enough as a team. you see it every time they run up against a young, talented team. they get crushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, buddha said: that is my disappointment as well, but i havent given up that we have "lightning in a bottle" in kasper or even mazur. but in the long run, they have to get a top line finisher either in this draft or the next plus a top free agent. theyre just not talented enough as a team. you see it every time they run up against a young, talented team. they get crushed. That's why he keeps collecting 1st and 2nd round picks. Nobody's going to give him a star in trade at favorable terms so all he can do is try to maximize the number of lottery tickets he has. Edited March 30, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 It's hard to get high end players past the second round...they can take awhile to develop and Stevie ha sonly been in control for four drafts. Wallinder and Mazur look like they might turn into NHL regulars....so there's hope there. Zadina is out for the year...there was talk that he came back early from his broken ankle. Have to wonder if it was too early. My perception of him is that he presses...gets the yips and blows shots way wide or high. He put a lot of pressure on himself on draft night...I wonder if the injury return and issues he has with burying shots are an extension of that. Dude needs to calm down. Maybe spark one and chill... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: It's hard to get high end players past the second round...they can take awhile to develop and Stevie ha sonly been in control for four drafts. Wallinder and Mazur look like they might turn into NHL regulars....so there's hope there. Zadina is out for the year...there was talk that he came back early from his broken ankle. Have to wonder if it was too early. My perception of him is that he presses...gets the yips and blows shots way wide or high. He put a lot of pressure on himself on draft night...I wonder if the injury return and issues he has with burying shots are an extension of that. Dude needs to calm down. Maybe spark one and chill... he was drafted on the back of one international tournament when he played very well. he hasnt played at the level since, not in international, not in the ahl, and definitely not in the nhl. hindsight is 20/20 but he was obviously overdrafted and just isnt that good. he doesnt seem particularly big, he isnt that physical, and - most of all - he shoots the puck either wide or right at the goalie. he's just not that good and at this point, i dont think he ever will be. his contract isnt bad so you can keep him around and hope he gets healthy and lucky, but the odds of him sticking in the league in two years (or even next year) really arent that high. he's a 4th liner on the wings now and they have almost no really good scoring forwards. what happens if they trade for one and kasper/mazur show promise? zadina is out of here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 One tournament? He put in 44 goals in the Q in his draft year and he netted 16 in 59 games with the Griffs as a 19 year-old. He has had some success beyond the world Jr's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 But that hasn't translated to the NHL yet and he's running out of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 (edited) To play forward in the NHL you either have be very strong on your skates, or if not, a very high level skater. If you don't have either, all you do is get knocked off the puck or erased at the boards all the time. Zadina and Veleno are exactly that kind of 'tweener.' Neither big enough nor quick enough. Edited March 30, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 17 hours ago, buddha said: im confusing hanas with mazur. i think mazur has a good chance to be very good. I've done this at least a few times as well... I don't know why I keep confusing Hanas and Mazur but... I have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 34 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: One tournament? He put in 44 goals in the Q in his draft year and he netted 16 in 59 games with the Griffs as a 19 year-old. He has had some success beyond the world Jr's everyone scores in the q. that would be barely top 10 this year. 16 in the ahl as a 19 year old is ok i guess. both those numbers are similar to joe veleno (42 in the q and 11 in the ahl in less games) who was the last pick in round one. what else? for the SIXTH pick in the draft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 (edited) What else? observations by scouts? Everyone had him ranked highly. He wasn't drafted on stats...I'm citing the stats to show you were distorting his record by saying his only success was in a single tournament. Yes...the Q isn't known as a defensive league, (BTW...Veleno got 42 in his post draft year, Zadina scored 44 in his draft year Zadina scored 45% more goals in GR than Veleno...that is not "similar") Zadina's 44 tied him for third in the league in his season there...so I don't see the relevance in citing this year's stats. His lackluster results are born out of his inability to bury his shots. I t has been suggested by people close to the team that he presses. Perhaps he'd see better results if he calms down Edited March 30, 2023 by Shinzaki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: What else? observations by scouts? Everyone had him ranked highly. He wasn't drafted on stats...I'm citing the stats to show you were distorting his record by saying his only success was in a single tournament. Yes...the Q isn't known as a defensive league, (BTW...Veleno got 42 in his post draft year, Zadina scored 44 in his draft year Zadina scored 45% more goals in GR than Veleno...that is not "similar") Zadina's 44 tied him for third in the league in his season there...so I don't see the relevance in citing this year's stats. His lackluster results are born out of his inability to bury his shots. I t has been suggested by people close to the team that he presses. Perhaps he'd see better results if he calms down being able to bury your shots is great, but the Wings aren't good enough to be able to afford to carry pure snipers. Even if Zadina had a better scoring percentage on his shots I don't see him being able to contribute much wrt the Wing's inability to control play. He doesn't generate assists either. Edited March 30, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: being able to bury your shots is great, but the Wings aren't good enough to be able to afford to carry pure snipers. Even if Zadina had a better scoring percentage on his shots I don't see him being able to contribute much wrt the Wing's inability to control play. but he's not a pure sniper. he's terrible at shooting. kubalik is a much better sniper. and vrana is much better than both of them. by a fairly wide margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 10 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: What else? observations by scouts? Everyone had him ranked highly. He wasn't drafted on stats...I'm citing the stats to show you were distorting his record by saying his only success was in a single tournament. Yes...the Q isn't known as a defensive league, (BTW...Veleno got 42 in his post draft year, Zadina scored 44 in his draft year Zadina scored 45% more goals in GR than Veleno...that is not "similar") Zadina's 44 tied him for third in the league in his season there...so I don't see the relevance in citing this year's stats. His lackluster results are born out of his inability to bury his shots. I t has been suggested by people close to the team that he presses. Perhaps he'd see better results if he calms down when they were 19 years old in the ahl, veleno scored 11 in 54 games and zadina scored 16 in 59. that's not a huge difference. the book on veleno has always been that he peaked physically early, that's why he fell in the draft. perhaps zadina did the same thing considering he went from dominating the u-18s to being pretty good in the u20s, to being a 3rd liner for the national team AND a complete bust for the red wings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 Not suggesting Zadina is as good a sniper as proven NHL goal scorers...suggesting his results might improve if he altered his mental approach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, buddha said: when they were 19 years old in the ahl, veleno scored 11 in 54 games and zadina scored 16 in 59. that's not a huge difference. the book on veleno has always been that he peaked physically early, that's why he fell in the draft. perhaps zadina did the same thing considering he went from dominating the u-18s to being pretty good in the u20s, to being a 3rd liner for the national team AND a complete bust for the red wings. It's a 45% difference....could be that Zadina matured early...that's part of why it's so hard to project the future with 18 year-olds. Every draft has its busts. I agree that Zadina has disappointed and seems to be a bust, but I tend to think his issues may be as much mental as anything else. Quinn Hughes or Evan Bouchard were guys that were talked about pre draft for the Wings. Had Zadina not fallen past the Habs, maybe we would have picked on e of them. Bouchard would be nice right now since he's bigger and a RHD..but Hughes is PPG guy who would def boost the PP Edited March 30, 2023 by Shinzaki 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 11 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: It's a 45% difference....could be that Zadina matured early...that's part of why it's so hard to project the future with 18 year-olds. Every draft has its busts. I agree that Zadina has disappointed and seems to be a bust, but I tend to think his issues may be as much mental as anything else. Quinn Hughes or Evan Bouchard were guys that were talked about pre draft for the Wings. Had Zadina not fallen past the Habs, maybe we would have picked on e of them. Bouchard would be nice right now since he's bigger and a RHD..but Hughes is PPG guy who would def boost the PP the draft is a real crap shoot. and zadina's numbers pre-draft were better than i had remembered them, so you were right about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 12 minutes ago, buddha said: when they were 19 years old in the ahl, veleno scored 11 in 54 games and zadina scored 16 in 59. that's not a huge difference. the book on veleno has always been that he peaked physically early, that's why he fell in the draft. perhaps zadina did the same thing considering he went from dominating the u-18s to being pretty good in the u20s, to being a 3rd liner for the national team AND a complete bust for the red wings. I think this make sense. It's like in baseball, just because a guy can feast on MiLB fastballs in the minors doesn't mean he can develop the skill to hit an MLB breaking ball. These guys had good skill at that level but the people that *projected* their skill would rise to NHL level missed. I think Hockey is like baseball in that regard - you have to draft for the highest potential ceilings. Players that are strong outliers for some property that they can leverage against top competiton - speed, size, strength, skating - that will allow them to have an edge at the next level - not just overal good in game performance at the lower level. I don't think that's enough. And you see SY doing this wrt his attraction to guys with a lot of size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I think this make sense. It's like in baseball, just because a guy can feast on MiLB fastballs in the minors doesn't mean he can develop the skill to hit an MLB breaking ball. These guys had good skill at that level but the people that *projected* their skill would rise to NHL level missed. I think Hockey is like baseball in that regard - you have to draft for the highest potential ceilings. Players that are strong outliers for some property that they can leverage against top competiton - speed, size, strength, skating - that will allow them to have an edge at the next level - not just overal good in game performance at the lower level. I don't think that's enough. And you see SY doing this wrt his attraction to guys with a lot of size. going back through those drafts there are not a ton of hits for anyone. but most of the hits are first round guys and top of the draft guys. that's why zadina (and to a lesser extent rasmussen) hurt so bad. those guys need to be stars, not third line pluggers, you can find those types anywhere. kasper and edvinsson have to hit. if they do, its going to push the rebuild along quickly. but they still need a pure goal scorer because kasper's stats dont look like that's his forte, i think he looks like larkin or zetterburg (not that he will be them), but more of a mentally tough player who is hard to play against with speed than a goal machine. yzerman seems to like to draft captains and young players who have performed well against men. and big defenseman. for all this talk, this is why they need to tank now! lol. they need a top pick like nobody's business this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 40 minutes ago, buddha said: this is why they need to tank now! And again, you can't come to any other conclusion that with Ras down and once they decided Vrana wasn't going to work for them, Stevie pulled the plug about as dramatically as a GM could have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 46 minutes ago, buddha said: ... this is why they need to tank now! lol. they need a top pick like nobody's business this year. Well... They are doing their best!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 It's going to come down to lotto luck this year though. Which I absolutely hate. Otherwise... they are picking 7th or 8th - good player range but not in top 3 talent range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordstanley Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 If it weren't for the fact that Michigan is again a Big 10 football power and the Lions will go to the Super Bowl within the next three years, I'd be getting impatient and discouraged about the state of our sports teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 48 minutes ago, lordstanley said: If it weren't for the fact that Michigan is again a Big 10 football power and the Lions will go to the Super Bowl within the next three years, I'd be getting impatient and discouraged about the state of our sports teams. the pistons - through their own ridiculous incompetence - are in the position to grab a game changing player. the red wings were only in that position once and the league fucked them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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